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wendersfan 12-03-04 04:15 PM

Bush's Ohio Win Was Closer Than Thought
 
<a href = "http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=1&u=/ap/20041203/ap_on_el_pr/ohio_vote"><b>Bush's Ohio Win Was Closer Than Thought</a></b>

By JOHN SEEWER, Associated Press Writer

TOLEDO, Ohio - President Bush's victory over John Kerry in Ohio was closer than the unofficial election night totals showed, but the change is not enough to trigger an automatic recount, according to county-by-county results provided to The Associated Press on Friday.

Bush's margin of victory in the state that put him over the top in his re-election bid will be about 119,000 votes smaller than the unofficial margin of 136,000, the county election board figures showed. That means Kerry drew closer by about 17,000 votes.

The margin shrank primarily because of the addition of provisional ballots that were not counted on Election Day and were not included in the unofficial tally. Overseas ballots also were added to the count in all 88 counties.

Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell will certify the results Monday.

The president's margin of victory was about 2 percent, not close enough to require an automatic recount. That happens only when the difference is 0.25 percent or less.

Bush beat Kerry nationally by 3 percentage points.

Out of 156,977 provisional ballots checked, 121,598 were pronounced valid and were accepted, meaning about one in five was thrown out, according to an AP tabulation. Provisional voters are cast when poll workers cannot immediately confirm if a voter was properly registered.

The Kerry campaign and two third-party candidates are seeking a recount in Ohio. The Green and Libertarian parties said they have raised enough money to cover the cost. The Kerry campaign said it is not disputing the outcome of the presidential race but wants to make sure any recount is "done accurately and completely."

A hearing on the recount request began in federal court in Columbus on Friday afternoon.

The narrowing of Bush's margin only increases the possibility that the election results could be changed, the Green Party said. "Who knows what else will turn up when we examine the discarded ballots?" Green spokesman Blair Bobier asked.

Rogue588 12-03-04 04:19 PM

Everyone knows Bush was "clear" winner.

Jeez.

Ranger 12-03-04 04:22 PM

It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning.

:D

tonyc3742 12-03-04 04:27 PM

Surely, since the Greens and Kerry are interested in "Every Vote", they are funding recount efforts in the other close [less than 2% margin] states, such as
Iowa .9%
New Hampshire 1.3%
New Mexico 1.1%
Wisconsin .4%

That's the only way a recount effort would be 'accurate and complete.'

And I seem to recall seeing that the Greens raised enough money for a provisional recount, but that the actual recount, to the tune of millions, would be funded by Your Humble Taxpayers.

nemein 12-03-04 04:29 PM

Actually there is a recount effort going on in New Mexico as well http://www.krqe.com/expanded.asp?REC...ontent%5D=7551

X 12-03-04 04:36 PM


Originally posted by nemein
Actually there is a recount effort going on in New Mexico as well http://www.krqe.com/expanded.asp?REC...ontent%5D=7551
It just killed Richardson that he couldn't deliver his state. :lol:

classicman2 12-03-04 04:52 PM


Originally posted by X
It just killed Richardson that he couldn't deliver his state. :lol:
I believe there is a Repub (former governor) in the cabinet today that couldn't deliver his state to Bush - remember? ;)

X 12-03-04 04:58 PM

He wasn't the darling of the Republicans as Richardson is to the Democrats. Richardson had to continually say he was taking himself out of consideration as the VP candidate and practically guaranteed a Democrat win in New Mexico.

classicman2 12-03-04 05:01 PM


Originally posted by X
He wasn't the darling of the Republicans as Richardson is to the Democrats. Richardson had to continually say he was taking himself out of consideration as the VP candidate and practically guaranteed a Democrat win in New Mexico.
Get outta here!!!

He guaranteed to deliver. He failed.

That's typical Republican action - they reward failure with a cabinet position. :lol:

X 12-03-04 05:02 PM

Your tirades on Republicans are getting boring.

classicman2 12-03-04 05:06 PM


Originally posted by X
Your tirades on Republicans are getting boring.
Your defenses of the Republican party and your attacks on the Democratic party are even more boring.

Myster X 12-03-04 05:10 PM

I love the headline. :lol:
Even if it's 130K from the previous 136, it's still consider than thought. :lol:
It's the only way to get liberals hope up.

orangerory 12-03-04 05:50 PM

Are you guys talking about Thompson - not to be nitpicky but I think he resigned today - so technically, he's not in the cabinet anymore. :)

But I support c-man anyway...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Dec3.html

Ranger 12-03-04 05:55 PM


Originally posted by X
Your tirades on Republicans are getting boring.

Originally posted by classicman2
Your defenses of the Republican party and your attacks on the Democratic party are even more boring.
Yet watching you two butt heads day after day is most entertaining. :D

Ranger 12-03-04 06:34 PM


Originally posted by dork
-ohbfrank-
Are we still having communication problems? Perhaps my words are too much for you. How about a picture for better illustration?

http://www.wanderlustimages.com/imag...ildlife_30.jpg

:)

sfsdfd 12-03-04 06:55 PM

Thread summary:

Whoopee.

- David Stein

Th0r S1mpson 12-03-04 07:43 PM

At this rate, they'll only have to recount 4 more times and bring in 600,000 more provisional ballots before Bush and Kerry are tied! -eek-

DVD Polizei 12-03-04 09:46 PM

I demand a recount!

(runs out of thread, dodging tomatoes, carrots, and assault weapons fire...)

bfrank 12-04-04 07:03 PM

man we need to fix this election mess.

What we do know is just a joke.

Th0r S1mpson 12-04-04 07:14 PM


Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I demand a recount!

(runs out of thread, dodging tomatoes, carrots, and assault weapons fire...)

<img src="http://www.tigress.com/incitatus/Stuff/Movies/Matrix/trinity.JPG">
"Dodge This."

[Pegs DVD Polizei with a cracker]

DivxGuy 12-05-04 11:51 AM


man we need to fix this election mess.
I think the "mess" is due to a power-at-all-costs mentality that has taken root.

Draven 12-06-04 02:41 AM

And this is supposed to be a "mandate?"

I'd call it a "squeaker" but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it.

classicman2 12-06-04 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by Draven
And this is supposed to be a "mandate?"

I'd call it a "squeaker" but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it.

Mandate - the right to govern

It's even more of a mandate since he was an incumbent. The majority of the American voters approved of how he was handling his job.

DivxGuy 12-06-04 12:07 PM


I'd call it a "squeaker" but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it.
A victory with both a two-point plurality and a genuine majority is not a squeaker. Even if some of the regional races were tight.

Clinton's first victory was in the neighborhood of 42%, yet I don't recall anyone casting doubt on its legitimacy.

Myster X 12-06-04 07:03 PM

Ohio makes Bush victory official

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Democrats to investigate voting procedures
Monday, December 6, 2004 Posted: 4:34 PM EST (2134 GMT)

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- This battleground state on Monday certified President Bush's 119,000-vote victory over John Kerry, even as third-party candidates prepared to demand a statewide recount.

The president won Ohio with 2.86 million votes, or 51 percent, to Kerry's 2.74 million votes, or 49 percent.

The 118,775-vote lead was closer than the unofficial election night margin of 136,000, but not enough to trigger a mandatory recount. Absentee ballots and provisional votes counted after election night made most of the difference.

"This was an election where you have some glitches but none of these glitches were of a conspiratorial nature and none of them would overturn or change the election results," Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell said.

The presidential election hung on Ohio, prized for its 20 electoral votes. Not until the morning after the election did Kerry finally concede -- realizing there were not enough provisional ballots to erase Bush's lead.

But presidential candidates for the Green and Libertarian parties planned to file requests for recounts on Monday and Tuesday.

Recount advocates have cited numerous Election Day problems, from long lines, a shortage of voting machines in predominantly minority neighborhoods and suspicious vote totals for candidates in scattered precincts.

A ruling by a federal judge in Columbus on Friday rejected one county's attempt to stop a recount, avoiding a legal precedent that could have stopped other recounts. Green and Libertarian party candidates have already raised the required $113,600.

Both major parties have said they do not expect the recount to change the result of the election.

The Democratic Party also said Monday it will examine reports of voting problems in Ohio.

Outgoing Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe said the party will spend "whatever it takes" to study complaints from Ohio voters.

McAuliffe said the party is not seeking to overturn the result but to ensure that every vote is counted. He said the study will be conducted by nonpartisan experts to be announced later, with a report issued in the spring that recommends reforms to prevent such problems in the future.

Blackwell, a Republican, oversaw the election process while serving as one of several statewide GOP leaders who co-chaired Bush's campaign. The 2000 Florida recount was also administered by a Republican secretary of state, Katherine Harris, who is now a member of Congress.

In a conference call with reporters, McAuliffe said the panel needs to look at the practice of secretaries of state serving as campaign officials. He said he personally thinks it's a laudable goal for election officials to be nonpartisan.

wendersfan 12-07-04 08:18 AM

Well, thank heavens for that. Now I can finally get a good night's sleep.

nevermind 12-07-04 08:46 AM


Originally Posted by wendersfan
Well, thank heavens for that. Now I can finally get a good night's sleep.


Dan Rather can't :(

X 12-07-04 11:21 AM

It's not over yet. There will be a recount.

Myster X 12-10-04 03:07 PM

When will the media and Democrats let this go.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...oting_problems

Cleveland Paper Cites Voter Problems

CLEVELAND - A polling place that served two adjoining precincts counted hundreds of votes for fringe presidential candidates Nov. 2, apparently because poll workers didn't instruct voters to use only the machines for their precinct, a newspaper reported Friday.


The Cleveland Plain Dealer's review of voting patterns in Cuyahoga County showed that many of the approximately 1,000 voters in the two precincts cast ballots just steps away at machines meant for the other precinct.


"There was no distinction between precincts," said Katie Daley, an observer for the Democratic Party who spent Election Day at the voting place, Benedictine High School. "Voters were being told to go to any machine that was open."


The newspaper reported the problems arose because candidate names were in different positions on the ballot in different precincts. A person's punch-card ballot would be misread if he voted in the wrong precinct and the card was then read on his or her home precinct's machine.


Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) lost Ohio to President Bush (news - web sites) by about 119,000 votes out of 5.6 million cast. Voting procedures have been under scrutiny because the closely fought state put President Bush over the top in November.


At the two precincts located at Benedictine, both heavily Democratic, Libertarian Michael Badnarik received 164 votes, almost half as many as Kerry, who got 334. In the adjacent precinct, Constitution Party candidate Michael Peroutka received 215 votes to Kerry's 299.


Because most of the problems occurred in heavily Democratic precincts, the errors seem to have cost votes for Kerry, the newspaper reported.


Michael Vu, Cuyahoga County's election director, said the findings would be investigated, and said they showed the need for more poll worker training.

mosquitobite 12-10-04 03:14 PM


Originally Posted by Myster X
Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) lost Ohio to President Bush (news - web sites) by about 119,000 votes out of 5.6 million cast. Voting procedures have been under scrutiny because the closely fought state put President Bush over the top in November.

At the two precincts located at Benedictine, both heavily Democratic, Libertarian Michael Badnarik received 164 votes, almost half as many as Kerry, who got 334. In the adjacent precinct, Constitution Party candidate Michael Peroutka received 215 votes to Kerry's 299.

Because most of the problems occurred in heavily Democratic precincts, the errors seem to have cost votes for Kerry, the newspaper reported.

Michael Vu, Cuyahoga County's election director, said the findings would be investigated, and said they showed the need for more poll worker training.

So he would have gotten POSSIBLY a total of 379 more votes than before. Yep, that 119 THOUSAND margin sure is a lot smaller now.

And if the precinct was heavily Democratic, why the hell didn't the DEMOCRATIC election director handle this BEFORE the election? :lol:


Vu, a Democrat, says his philosophy is simple: "Doing what it takes within the statutes, within ethics and within morals. Working hard. And keeping my staff accountable as well as myself.

wendersfan 12-10-04 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by Myster X
When will the media and Democrats let this go.

Not until a Democrat is sitting in the White House, I fear. I get emails every day from friends of mine asking me to attend meetings of groups asking for recounts. I politely ignore them all.

My impression is that a lot of Democrats refuse to believe that a Republican can't get elected President without the fix being in somehow. I think they call this condition 'denial'.

Draven 12-10-04 03:16 PM


Originally Posted by DivxGuy
A victory with both a two-point plurality and a genuine majority is not a squeaker. Even if some of the regional races were tight.

Clinton's first victory was in the neighborhood of 42%, yet I don't recall anyone casting doubt on its legitimacy.

I don't remember him acting like it was a decisive victory for his administration. Bush seems to flat out ignore that nearly half of this country didn't think he was worth re-electing.

Oh, and the popular vote STILL doesn't mean anything. It didn't mean anything in 2000 and it doesn't mean anything now.

dick_grayson 12-10-04 03:17 PM

I'd say either side would be doing the same thing, if they'd lost. I think it's stupid myself, but I don't think it's a democrat only type of thing.

bhk 12-10-04 03:31 PM


I don't remember him acting like it was a decisive victory for his administration. Bush seems to flat out ignore that nearly half of this country didn't think he was worth re-electing.
People keep saying this but there were a lot more people who voted for him or didn't care enough about getting him out than there were who voted against him. It isn't "nearly half of the country didn't think he was worth re-electing." It isn't even close.

Clinton did act like he won a decisive victory in 1992.

bhk 12-10-04 03:35 PM


I'd say either side would be doing the same thing, if they'd lost. I think it's stupid myself, but I don't think it's a democrat only type of thing.
I'd say that you are incorrect. Contrast Nixon v. Kennedy in 1960 to Bush v. Gore 2000 or what is happening now.
Heck, contrast Ashcroft v. Carnahan in 2000 when MO elected a dead man to the Senate.

wendersfan 12-10-04 03:50 PM


Originally Posted by bhk
I'd say that you are incorrect. Contrast Nixon v. Kennedy in 1960 to Bush v. Gore 2000 or what is happening now.
Heck, contrast Ashcroft v. Carnahan in 2000 when MO elected a dead man to the Senate.

To be fair, I don't think Kennedy V. Nixon is relevant anymore. That was a different era, and in retrospect Richard Nixon had more class than almost any Democratic politician of national stature today.

DivxGuy 12-12-04 04:44 PM


I don't remember him acting like it was a decisive victory for his administration.
I do. And his actions reflected such an attitude, exemplified by the way he arm-twisted his allies in Congress to push through the semi-auto ban in 1994, despite their pleas that the legislation was too much, too soon.

DJLinus 12-13-04 10:52 AM

http://www.wbns10tv.com/Global/story...6&nav=LUERU75v


Democrat John Kerry is asking county elections officials to allow his witnesses to visually inspect the 92,000 ballots cast in Ohio in which no vote for president was recorded, a Kerry lawyer said Sunday night.
Yeah, because given our two choices this election year, how could anyone consciously choose not to vote for one of the major presidential candidates? Notify Sean Penn at once.


Kerry's campaign supports the recount but says it won't change the election outcome.
As an Ohio resident, I'm thrilled to financially support this useless recount. :rolleyes:

Somewhat interesting aside: the lawyer quoted in this story was my Election Law professor last year. Pretty much every three credit class lasted a little bit over an hour (including a break, as it was a night class). For a class with such dry subject matter, he was a blessing.

Nazgul 12-13-04 02:06 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Delay sought in Ohio electoral vote

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Dissident groups asked the Ohio Supreme Court on Monday to review the outcome of the state's presidential race, hours before the Ohio delegation to the Electoral College was to cast ballots for president and vice president.

The groups question whether President Bush won the key swing state by 119,000 votes, guaranteeing his victory over Democrat John Kerry.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson and attorney Cliff Arnebeck of the Massachusetts-based Alliance for Democracy accused President Bush's campaign of "high-tech vote stealing."

Jackson said the challengers noticed Bush generally received more votes in counties that use optical-scan voting machines and questioned whether the machines were calibrated to record votes for Bush.

The dissidents claim there were disparities in vote totals for Democrats, too few voting machines in Democrat-leaning precincts, organized campaigns directing voters to the wrong polling place and confusion over the counting of provisional ballots by voters whose names did not appear in the records at polling places.

If the court decides to hear the challenge, it can declare a new winner or throw out the results. The challengers also planned to ask the court to stop the Electoral College delegation's vote until their case can be decided.

Protesters had been expected to demonstrate outside the Capitol as Electoral College delegates voted in the Ohio Senate chamber, but none were present as the vote began at midday.

Congressional Democrats sent a letter to Republican Gov. Bob Taft on Monday, asking him to delay the Electoral College vote or at least consider the results unofficial until the disputes are resolved.

Taft spokesman Orest Holubec said the governor would not postpone the vote or treat it as provisional.

"The vote is required to move forward by law, and it will more forward," Holubec said. "The vote has been certified by the secretary of state, and all of the valid provisionals have been counted."

Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, defended the election results. For the challengers' accusations to be true, he said, officials in both parties would have had to conspire to throw the election.

"That's simply a ridiculous assertion," he said.

Led by a coalition representing the Green and Libertarian parties, the dissidents are paying for recounts in each of Ohio's 88 counties that will begin this week. The recounts are not expected to be complete until next week.

Kerry issued a statement last week saying reported voting problems should be investigated to ensure there are no doubts in future elections. His campaign does not dispute that Bush won the election, but supports the recounts.

kenbuzz 12-13-04 11:00 PM

So let me get this straight. Instead of Bush winning by one hundred eighteen thousand seven hundred seventy five votes, he only actually won by one hundred eighteen thousand three hundred ninety six? Insead of winning by 2.11 percent the actual margin was a mere 2.10 percent!!!

Thank god they got it right.

I wonder how much that fourth decimal place cost the Ohio Democratic party?


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