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The Islamization of Europe?

Old 12-04-04, 12:58 PM
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The Islamization of Europe?

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/ar...aid=11805031_1

David Pryce-Jones

Only a few years ago, mass-murder attacks on the West in the name of Islam, like those of September 11, would have seemed like a thriller writer’s fantasy. Nor would anyone have imagined that a bombing by Islamists could swing a general election in a European country, that a Dutch movie-maker might be shot dead on the street for a film about the abuse of women in Islam, or that one might find oneself watching, on television, the beheading of Western hostages by men crying out Allahu Akhbar! over their savage deeds. Pakistan now has a nuclear bomb, and this weapon is widely described as an Islamic bomb. To judge by their pronouncements, the Islamist leaders of Iran can hardly wait to perfect and use their derivative of it.

At present, it is not clear whether the religious/ideological rage that is the motive force behind these developments has any limits, whether it may yet succeed in mobilizing truly huge numbers of Muslim masses, or whether it can be deflected or crushed. What is clear is that a phenomenon that at first looked like a cloud no bigger than a man’s hand has lashed up into a crisis with global implications.

Does this crisis amount to a “clash of civilizations”? Many people reject that notion as too sweeping or downright misleading. Yet whether or not it applies to, say, the situation in Iraq, or to the war on terror, the phrase has much to recommend it as a description of what is going on inside Europe today. As Yves Charles Zarka, a French philosopher and analyst, has written: “there is taking place in France a central phase of the more general and mutually conflicting encounter between the West and Islam, which only someone completely blind or of radical bad faith, or possibly of disconcerting naiveté, could fail to recognize.” In the opinion of Bassam Tibi, an academic of Syrian origins who lives in Germany, Europeans are facing a stark alternative: “Either Islam gets Europeanized, or Europe gets Islamized.” Going still farther, the eminent historian Bernard Lewis has speculated that the clash may well be over by the end of this century, at which time, if present demographic trends continue, Europe itself will be Muslim.

Today’s situation has been a very long time—centuries—in the making. For much of that time, of course, the encounter between Muslims and the West remained stacked in favor of the latter, both militarily and culturally. Which is not to say that Europeans of an earlier age were blind to the danger posed to Western civilization by a resurgent Islam. One watchful observer was Winston Churchill, who wrote about Islam—or Mohammedanism as it was then called—in The River War (1899):

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step, and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science . . . the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

Hilaire Belloc had similar premonitions 30 years later in The Great Heresies (1938):

Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Muhammadan world which will shake the dominion of Europeans—still nominally Christian—and reappear again as the prime enemy of our civilization? . . . Since we have here a very great religion, physically paralyzed, but morally intensely alive, we are in the presence of an unstable equilibrium.
To these early observers, nevertheless, it did seem that Western cultural and military superiority could be counted on to prevail, at least for the foreseeable future. (Belloc is better remembered for his boast, “We have got the Gatling gun, and they have not.”) And prevail it did throughout a good part of the 20th century. In the last decades, however, another historical process has been at work drastically revising the calculus of power.

Contemporary Islamism might be summed up as the effort to redress and reverse the long-ago defeat of Muslim power by European (i.e., Christian) civilization. Toward that end, it has followed two separate courses of action: adopting the forms of nationalism that have appeared to many Muslims to contain the secret of Western supremacy, or promoting Islam itself as the one force capable of uniting Muslims everywhere and hence ensuring their renewed power and dominance. In the hands of today’s Islamists, and with the complicity of Europe itself, these two approaches have proved mutually reinforcing.

In Europe, the world wars of the last century finally undid and discredited the idea of the sovereign nation-state, the engine of the continent’s preeminence and self-confidence. In place of this tried and tested political arrangement, now suddenly seen as outmoded and dysfunctional, institutions like the European Union and the United Nations were thought to offer a firmer foundation for a new world order, one that would be based on universal legal norms and in which sovereign power would be rendered superfluous. It has been the resulting decline of the European nation-state that has helped provide a unique opportunity for Islamism, itself based on a world-wide, transnational community that has been united by faith and custom since its inception and that traditionally has drawn no distinction between the realm of faith and the realm of temporal power.

A number of ideological movements have spread and fortified the modern projection of transnational Islam. Perhaps the most successful has been the Muslim Brotherhood, founded by Hasan al-Banna in Egypt in 1928, with branches today in some 40 to 50 countries. Yasir Arafat and Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden’s deputy, are among those formed by the Brotherhood. Its more recent inspiration derives from the Egyptian-born Sayyid Qutb, whose three-year stay in the United States in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s convinced him that the West and everything it stood for had to be rejected, while Islam already provided every Muslim with state, nation, religion, and identity all in one. Saudi Arabia has spent billions of its petro-dollars financing groups, including terrorist groups, that promote this idea.

The 1979 revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran was an opening test of the new balance of forces between a rising transnational Islam and the declining Western nation-state. European countries, which in the postwar period seemed largely to have lost the will to respond to aggressive challenges from without, presented no opposition to the totalitarian Khomeini regime and no barrier to its aggrandizement. That left the United States, still a nation-state very much committed to defending its sovereignty. Indeed, to the ayatollahs and their allies, the U.S. represented a final embodiment of the Great Satan, fit to be confronted in holy war.

This remains the case today. In the meantime, though, a battle of a different but no less decisive kind has been taking place within Europe, where some 20 million Muslims have settled. Thanks on the one hand to their high birthrate, and on the other hand to the sub-replacement birthrate that has become the norm among other Europeans, the demographic facts alone suggest a continent ripe for a determined effort to advance the Islamist agenda.

In its global reach and in its aggressive intentions, Islamist ideology bears some resemblance to another transnational belief system: namely, Communism. Like today’s Islamists, Communists of an earlier age saw themselves as engaged in an apocalyptic struggle in which every member of a Communist party anywhere was expected to comport himself as a frontline soldier, and in which terror was seen as a wholly permissible means toward victory in a war to the finish. Compare Stalin’s “If the enemy does not surrender he must be exterminated” with the refusal of the leader of Hizballah in Lebanon to negotiate with or ask concessions from the West because “We seek to exterminate you.” To Sheik Omar Bakri Muhammad, a Syrian with British citizenship who until recently led a group called al-Muhajiroun, the terrorists of September 11 were “The Magnificent Nineteen”—or, as he explains, the advance guard of an army of “our Muslim brothers from abroad [who] will come one day and conquer here.”

Throughout the cold-war era, the European democracies under threat from Soviet expansionism were themselves home to Communist parties, as well as to an array of front organizations ostensibly devoted to peace and friendship and culture but in reality manipulated by and for Soviet purposes. In addition, many people from all walks of life accommodated themselves to Communism with varying degrees of emotional intensity and out of various motives, including the wish to be on what they perceived as the winning side and the converse fear of winding up on the losing side.

Each of these elements, in suitably transmuted form, is present today. The pool of local recruits upon which Islamists draw is itself very large. Of Europe’s 20 million Muslims, it is estimated that 5 or 6 million live in France alone, at least 3 million in Germany and 2 million in Britain, 1 million apiece in Holland and Italy, and a half-million apiece in Spain and Austria.

It is true that most Muslim immigrants to Europe come simply with hopes for a better life, and that these hopes are more important to them than any apprehensions they might entertain about living in a society ruled by non-Muslims—something historically prohibited in Islam. Indeed, large numbers have assimilated with greater or lesser strain, and, in the manner of other minorities, have become “hyphenated” as British-Muslim, French-Muslim, Italian-Muslim, and the like. Religious life flourishes: if, a half-century ago, there were but a handful of mosques throughout Europe, today every leading country has over a thousand, and France and Germany each have somewhere between five and six thousand. Muslim pressure groups, lobbies, and charities operate effectively everywhere; in Britain alone there are 350 Muslim bodies of one kind or another.

Among these various organizations, however, a number function as Islamist fronts. Inspired by Saudi Arabia or Khomeinist Iran, by the Muslim Brotherhood or al Qaeda, they work to undermine democracy in whatever ways they can, just as Soviet front organizations once did. They push immigrants to repudiate both the process and the very idea of integration, challenging them as a matter of religious belief and identity to take up an oppositional stance to the societies in which they live. Issues of Islamic concern have been skillfully magnified into scandals in the attempt to foment animosity on all sides and thus further deter or prevent the integration of Muslims into mainstream European life.

The notorious 1989 fatwa condemning the novelist Salman Rushdie to death for exercising his right to free speech as a British citizen was an early example of this tactic of disruption and agitation. Another has been the attempt in Britain to set up a Muslim “parliament” that will recognize only Islamic law (shari’a) as binding, and not the law of the land. Still another has been the insistence, in France, on the wearing of the hijab by girls in public schools, a practice that clearly contradicts the ideals of French republicanism and is in any case not an Islamic requirement. The tactical thinking behind such incitements was well articulated by an al-Qaeda leader who, calling upon British Muslims to “bring the West to its knees,” added that they, “the locals, and not foreigners,” have the advantage since they understand “the language, culture, area, and common practices of the enemy whom they coexist among.”

Still another phenomenon familiar from the Soviet era has lately made a repeat appearance in the West, and that is voluntary accommodation, or fellow-traveling, among non-Muslims. Leftist fellow-travelers once helped to create a climate of opinion favorable to Communism. Many knew exactly what they were doing. Others merely meant well; they were what Lenin called “useful idiots.” In like manner, Islamist fellow-travelers and useful idiots are weaving a climate of opinion today that advances the purposes of radical Islam and is deeply damaging to the prospects of reconciliation.

As in the 30’s and throughout the cold war, intellectuals and journalists are in the lead. Books pour from the presses to justify everything and anything Muslims have done in the past and are doing in the present. Just as every Soviet aggression was once defined as an act of self-defense against the warmongering West, today terrorists of al Qaeda, or the Chechen terrorists who killed children in the town of Beslan, are described in the media as militants, activists, separatists, armed groups, guerrillas—in short, as anything but terrorists. Dozens of apologists pretend that there is no connection between the religion of Islam and those who practice terror in its name, or suggest that Western leaders are no better or are indeed worse than Islamist murderers. Thus Karen Armstrong, the well-known historian of religion: “It’s very difficult sometimes to distinguish between Mr. Bush and Mr. bin Laden.”

One form of Islamist fellow-traveling masquerades as a call for “tolerance,” or “diversity,” and has penetrated right through the world of European opinion and European institutions. The British Communist historian Christopher Hill once concluded a book on Lenin with a reverent recital of the epithets the party had devised to glorify him. Pious Muslims follow the mention of the Prophet Muhammad with the invocation, “Peace be upon him.” This practice has now crept into a biography of the Prophet written by a British writer not ostensibly a Muslim. To encourage such acts of deference, there has been a complementary effort to stifle contrary or less than fully respectful opinions. When the outspoken French novelist Michel Houellebecq pronounced Islam to be hateful, stupid, and dangerous, Muslim organizations and the League for the Rights of Man took him to court, just as the Italian writer Oriana Fallaci was sued for her book tying the 9/11 attacks to the teachings of Islam. Although both writers won their cases, the chilling effect was unmistakable.

The institutions that have been affected by Islamophile correctness run the gamut. In Britain, a judge has agreed to prohibit Hindus and Jews from sitting on a jury in the trial of a Muslim. The British Commission for Racial Equality has ordained that businesses must provide prayer rooms for Muslims and pay them for their absences on religious holidays. In a town in the Midlands, a proposal to renovate a hundred-year-old statue of a pig was rejected for fear of giving offense to Muslims. The British Council, an international organization for cultural relations, fired a staff member who published articles in the Sunday Telegraph arguing that the roots of terror and jihad were nourished in the soil of Islam, while the BBC canceled the contract of a popular television journalist for allegedly using negative language to describe the Muslim Arab contribution to mankind.

Commercial society has likewise rushed to accommodate real or imagined Muslim sensibilities: a British bank boasts that it will comply with shari’a prohibitions on the uses of money, and the German state of Saxony-Anhalt has become the first European body to issue a sukuk, or Islamic bond. Religious society is not far behind: even as bin Laden speaks of wresting Spain (“al-Andalus”) from the infidels by violence, the cathedral of Santiago has considered removing a statue of St. James Matamoros (“the Moor slayer”), lest it give offense to Muslims. For the same reason, the municipality of Seville has removed King Ferdinand III, hitherto the city’s patron saint, from fiesta celebrations because he fought the Moors for 27 years. In Italy, where Islamists have threatened to destroy the cathedral of Bologna because of a fresco illustrating the Prophet Muhammad in the inferno (where Dante placed him), thought has been given to deleting the art-work from the walls. Even the Pope has apologized for the Crusades. In secular Denmark, the Qur’an (but not the Bible) is now required reading for high-school students. And so forth.

The lengths to which apologists for Islamism are prepared to go is nicely illustrated by the case of Tariq Ramadan, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of Fribourg in Switzerland and a popular writer and speaker. As is well known, the American university Notre Dame recently offered Ramadan a professorship, but U.S. immigration authorities have so far rejected his application for a visa. This has elicited some classic examples of fellow-traveling obfuscation from both Americans and Europeans outraged on his behalf. A letter to the Washington Post protesting Ramadan’s treatment undertook to explicate his supposed message to Western Muslims: they “must find common values and build with fellow citizens a society based on diversity and equality.”

Not quite. What Tariq Ramadan has really proposed in his writings and teachings is that Muslims in the West should conduct themselves not as hyphenated citizens seeking to live by “common values” but as though they were already in a Muslim-majority society and exempt on that account from having to make concessions to the faith of others. What Ramadan advocates is a kind of reverse imperialism. In his conception, Muslims in non-Muslim countries should feel themselves entitled to live on their own terms—while, under the terms of Western liberal tolerance, society as a whole should feel obliged to respect that choice.

Ramadan happens to be a grandson of Hasan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, but he is also a guarded writer. In fact, his is a relatively “moderate” and qualified expression of Islamic reverse imperialism. More overtly, and with an implicit threat of violence, Dyab Abu Jahjah, a Lebanese who has settled in Antwerp, has denounced the Western ideal of assimilation as “cultural rape,” and aims to bring all the Muslims of Europe into a single independent community. He, too, needless to say, has his defenders and apologists among European liberals.

Or consider the European reception of Yusuf al-Qaradawi, heir to Sayyid Qutb as the religious authority of the Muslim Brotherhood. Wanted on charges of terrorism in his native Egypt, al-Qaradawi now lives in Qatar. Like Tariq Ramadan in Switzerland, he emphasizes that Muslims must keep apart from liberal democracy as it is practiced in the West while also availing themselves of its benefits and advantages. But he goes much further. Unlike Ramadan, he approves of wife-beating in the forms sanctioned by the Qur’an; as for homosexuals, he is agnostic on whether they should be thrown off a high cliff or flogged to death. Yet this year, in an official ceremony at London’s City Hall, al-Qaradawi was welcomed as “an Islamic scholar held in great respect” by the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. “You are truly, truly welcome,” gushed Livingstone, an otherwise enthusiastic supporter of gay pride.

Also appearing this year in London was Sheik Abdul Rahman al-Sudayyis, a senior imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca; among his many distinctions, al-Sudayyis has vituperated Jews as “the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs.” Standing beside this apostle of “diversity and equality” was a junior minister in the Blair government.

The Islamic Foundation, one of Britain’s numerous Muslim bodies, has an offshoot called the Markfield Institute. In July, the London Times linked both the foundation and the institute to terrorism. An offended reader with an English name wrote to protest: “I hope that Markfield . . . will be allowed to help individual Muslims to practice their faith with peace and respect, in a multicultural Britain.” Another reader, an Anglican canon in the Diocese of Leicester (a city with a Muslim majority today), asserted that the institute was simply trying to teach imams and Muslim youngsters alike to work within British institutions.

In just that spirit, and even in that vocabulary, the fellow-traveling Beatrice Webb used to advance the transcendent virtues of the Soviet social model. Gullible, false, and dangerous statements of this kind are now as common as rain.

In the realm of classical Islam, Christians and Jews once lived as dhimmis—that is to say, minorities with second-class rights, tolerated but discriminated against by law and custom. Many contemporary Muslims appear to idealize this long-lost supremacy over others, and aspire to reconstruct it. One way to work for this end is through violence and terror. Another way, the way of Tariq Ramadan and Yusuf al-Qaradawi, is through words. One way and another, the project is advancing. Summing up the collective achievement so far, Bat Ye’or, the historian of “dhimmitude,” has written that “Europe has evolved from a Judeo-Christian civilization with important post-Enlightenment/secular elements to . . . a secular Muslim transitional society with its traditional Judeo-Christian mores rapidly disappearing.” She calls this evolving entity “Eurabia.”

If that is the case, or is becoming the case, is it any wonder that some Europeans are switching sides, so as to be on the winning one? The sheer élan and cultural confidence displayed by Islamist spokesmen may have something to do with the fact that every year, thousands of people all over Europe convert to Islam. Some of these converts, from Britain, France, and Germany, taking the direct route from words to action, have gone on to play a disproportionate role in terrorism and Islamist militancy. Thus, at a rally organized in London last year by a radical offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, a high proportion of demonstrators were clearly not of Middle Eastern origin. At a recent trial in Cairo in which three British citizens were condemned to prison for subversion and intended terrorism, two were English-born, with English names. They were led away shouting defiance of the West.

There are certainly Muslims in Europe who look with horror upon what is being done in their name, and who wish to have nothing to do with the notion that they are entitled to live in the West as, in effect, conquerors. For wholly understandable reasons, few of them have the courage to speak out. One of the exceptional few recently wrote a letter to the London Times, giving his name and address, and saying that he defines his community as the people with whom he chooses to interact. He went on: “We do not all subscribe to the same way of being a Muslim, neither do we push our beliefs into the civic and political sphere.” But, he continued, “Sadly the public does not always get our point of view, because the only Muslims who are consulted are those who choose to drag Islam into the political sphere.”

One could not ask for a clearer repudiation not only of all Muslim Brotherhood-style proselytizers but, even more bitingly, of the patronizing and indulgent attitude adopted toward them by the European establishment. Those in Europe who have striven in ways great and small to extend special privileges to Muslims while subtly deprecating their own national identity and culture have indeed helped open the way to Islamic separatism and Islamist agitation. They have thereby hastened the very clash of civilizations that they (or some of them) foolishly claim they are avoiding. If Bassam Tibi is correct in stating that “either Islam gets Europeanized or Europe gets Islamized,” powerful forces are at work to foreclose the question.


DAVID PRYCE-JONES, the British political analyst, is a senior editor of National Review and the author of, among other books, The Closed Circle and The Strange Death of the Soviet Empire. An earlier version of the present essay was delivered at a conference at Boston University in October.
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Old 12-04-04, 01:17 PM
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So that's what he's been doing since Frasier. Interesting.
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Old 12-04-04, 01:36 PM
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I thought this was posted a while back. I [email protected]@ France being the first victim around 2020.
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Old 12-04-04, 02:34 PM
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Holland is already in the process of being the first victim, though they've chosen to fight it seems.
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Old 12-04-04, 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by Myster X
I thought this was posted a while back.
It was. Every three months or so, <b>bhk</b> reposts this article or one just like it. Fretting about Islam is, like, his hobby or something.

- David Stein
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Old 12-04-04, 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
It was. Every three months or so, <b>bhk</b> reposts this article or one just like it. Fretting about Islam is, like, his hobby or something.

- David Stein
you mean obsession ..

that being said, in the friday prayers here in montreal, the maulvi mentioned something about this european maulvi calling the jews pigs and monkeys. he called that maulvi ignorant, and safid that by calling the jews these things, we disrespect prophet isa, musa (jesus,moses), and their forefathers. he said that these things have no place in islam.

but i guess, since he didn't get any press coverage for this, it doesn;t really count

Last edited by nomaan; 12-04-04 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 12-04-04, 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
It was. Every three months or so, <b>bhk</b> reposts this article or one just like it. Fretting about Islam is, like, his hobby or something.

- David Stein
It's his alternate hobby for when he runs out of "socialism" stories to fret about.
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Old 12-04-04, 10:55 PM
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I expect any moment to hear from the other end of the spectrum the idea that there are only a few of radical, fundamentalist Muslims that we have to be concerned with.
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Old 12-04-04, 11:39 PM
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We just need to wait for them to start posting.
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Old 12-04-04, 11:54 PM
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I just wanted to say that there are only few actual radical Islamic terrorists, and that we need to be more accepting.
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Old 12-05-04, 12:01 AM
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My problem with the article is that is mostly fear mongering. There are certainly more than a few radical fundamentalist Muslims in Europe, but the article makes it seem like there is a vast tide of millions trying to destroy Europe.

I am not that familiar with Islam in Europe, but I doubt they act as a monolithic block.

I'd also have to say that the line about Denmark is wrong. In one of the previous threads about Islam in Europe, a Danish poster mentioned that they read a chapter of the Qu'ran as part of a comparative religion type class, and that they also read some of the Bible. I really don't see a problem with doing that.
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Old 12-05-04, 07:20 AM
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They aren't trying to "destroy" Europe per se, but are attempting to over-run it with Religion so they can gain an eventual majority, and then introduce Sharia courts.

But my problem is, the more Muslims you have, the more escalation in violence you have, because it attracts the RADICALS. Radicals don't live and thrive where there is no support of Islam.
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Old 12-05-04, 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
It was. Every three months or so, bhk reposts this article or one just like it. Fretting about Islam is, like, his hobby or something.

- David Stein
Originally posted by eXcentris
It's his alternate hobby for when he runs out of "socialism" stories to fret about.
I see it more as "exposing" than "fretting".
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Old 12-05-04, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
They aren't trying to "destroy" Europe per se, but are attempting to over-run it with Religion so they can gain an eventual majority, and then introduce Sharia courts.

But my problem is, the more Muslims you have, the more escalation in violence you have, because it attracts the RADICALS. Radicals don't live and thrive where there is no support of Islam.
Agreed. At least in the present day.
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Old 12-05-04, 12:14 PM
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It's an interesting world. Religious nuts of all types seem to be energized.
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Old 12-05-04, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
They aren't trying to "destroy" Europe per se, but are attempting to over-run it with Religion so they can gain an eventual majority, and then introduce Sharia courts.

But my problem is, the more Muslims you have, the more escalation in violence you have, because it attracts the RADICALS. Radicals don't live and thrive where there is no support of Islam.
The first point is what some people use against Christianity in the States - that there are religious fundamentalists trying to impose their beliefs on the whole country. I think that's overblown. I'd wager that the majority of Muslims (like the majority of Christians here) aren't set on over-running the country.

Your second point is an interesting problem to address. I agree that there is a problem with radical islamists, but there has to be a better way to address it than by taking the general Muslims are a threat line that the article does.
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Old 12-06-04, 12:14 AM
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Aldarion,

Well, this is the difference between the core of Christianity and the core of Islam--at least in my experience and opinion. Islam is a religion of dominance and superiority. You are taught, at a very young age, as to the very strict disciplines of the Islam faith. This is part of why we have terrorists today. Now, take a typical Christian family. The moral codes and rules of Christianity are much different than Islam, teach acceptance forgiveness--have you ever heard of Islam forgiving a Jew and moving on?--and children are not educated in the massive hate brainwashing strategy which Islam currently practices. Yes, I hear all the time, "It's not Islam, it's the people who interpret it." Well, normally, I would accept this excuse, but when I hear it coming from almost every mosque in the Middle East, Southwest Asia, and Northern Africa, I tend to think, hell no, this excuse is just that--an excuse to prevent most people from taking a closer notice on the overall implications of Islam.

Now, in the US, we do have a higher majority of "moderate" Muslims, who don't believe in such drastic disciplinary techniques and don't follow the teachings as strictly as they were told to, but outside the US, it's much different, and this is where the majority of the Muslim population still exists. The US mainly has sympathizers and sleepers. You don't about it until you investigate (which many call racist and whatever else), and when you do investigate, it's considered an exception to the overall mission of Islam--which is peace, of course.

I mean, right now, can we identify a bunch of Christian terrorists who are killing Muslims in various countries (some will say the US occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan)? Can we identify Christian organizations who funnel money to Christian terrorist groups around the world who are helping the deaths of thousands of innocent Muslims? No. Islam has a unique way of teaching others its religion: Dominance, Force, Submission, Death. There are no compromises. Christianity, I argue, does in fact offer a lesser degree of request for being a follower of the faith. Christianity is based on Foregiveness. Islam is based on Dominance and No Tolerance.

Wherever you have a poor community, you have higher crime. Wherever you have uneducated people, you have higher crime.

And unfortunately, it is becoming the same for Muslim groups (and this is where it gets interesting because we now break the barriers of education deprivation and financial status). We hear on a regular basis, about raids of a handful of Muslims in New York 'burbs or Jersey, or other cities where Muslims are growing in numbers, where weapons and manuals/documents are confiscated, just in time before a pre-meditated act was about to happen on our society. And these aren't necessarily "poor" or "stupid" kids or adults. These guys are mature enough and have the finances to figure out what they want in life, and it just so happens they want to kill people, in glamour of their god.

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Old 12-06-04, 09:24 AM
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Well written, DVD Polizei. I highly recommend the book, "What if Jesus Had Never Been Born?" by D. James Kennedy, and Jerry Newcombe. It describes the state of the world before the 1st century, how things changed in those areas where Christianity had spread, and how some of today's secular institutions had Christian roots. It tackles the claim that "More people have been killed in the name of Christ than in any other name", The crusades, sins of Christianity. This isn't a "puff piece"... it takes a critical look at Christianity over the ages.
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Old 12-06-04, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Aldarion,

I mean, right now, can we identify a bunch of Christian terrorists who are killing Muslims in various countries (some will say the US occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan)? Can we identify Christian organizations who funnel money to Christian terrorist groups around the world who are helping the deaths of thousands of innocent Muslims? No. Islam has a unique way of teaching others its religion: Dominance, Force, Submission, Death. There are no compromises. Christianity, I argue, does in fact offer a lesser degree of request for being a follower of the faith. Christianity is based on Foregiveness. Islam is based on Dominance and No Tolerance.
Well, the West doesn't need to implement guerilla tactics, we have a stronger conventional military that can and will enforce our will upon the rest of the world. Even if it is used as a deterrent, such as keeping naval vessels off costal waters, they are enforcing the will of the West. Guerilla tactics and terrorism are the only military means at the disposal of Islamic fighters at this point.

I'm just nitpicking a bit at one part of your statement though. For me the real question is, Can Islam change so that it is more accepting of Westerism (drinking alcohol, treatment of women, etc)? I think that if it can't we will have a clash of civilizations and if that does happen, we better win.
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Old 12-06-04, 10:39 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Aldarion
I'd also have to say that the line about Denmark is wrong. In one of the previous threads about Islam in Europe, a Danish poster mentioned that they read a chapter of the Qu'ran as part of a comparative religion type class, and that they also read some of the Bible. I really don't see a problem with doing that.
I was still scratching my head at that line about Denmark until I read your post. Thanks for clearing things up a bit.

Western Culture and the Islamic Culture can co-exist (look at Turkey). But moderate Muslims need to speak out against the Islamists so people everywhere, including their fellow Muslims, know that a majority of Muslims do not follow or support these fanatics.
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Old 12-06-04, 10:48 AM
  #21  
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i posted this in another thread, and i'll post it here.
last friday, the sermon that our montreal maulvi gave us is what you'd want to hear from the 'moderate muslims'. basically, he took some european maulvi to task for saying the jews are pigs/monkeys.

now, the european maulvi got press attention, but our maulvi did not.
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Old 12-06-04, 11:13 AM
  #22  
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True - the press attention would definitely help the moderate Muslims cause.
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Old 12-06-04, 11:37 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by nomaan
i posted this in another thread, and i'll post it here.
last friday, the sermon that our montreal maulvi gave us is what you'd want to hear from the 'moderate muslims'. basically, he took some european maulvi to task for saying the jews are pigs/monkeys.

now, the european maulvi got press attention, but our maulvi did not.

Yep - this is one of the major problems (what the press chooses to cover), and something I've been pointing out in the last 3 years.
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Old 12-06-04, 12:02 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Aldarion,

Well, this is the difference between the core of Christianity and the core of Islam--at least in my experience and opinion. Islam is a religion of dominance and superiority. You are taught, at a very young age, as to the very strict disciplines of the Islam faith. This is part of why we have terrorists today. Now, take a typical Christian family. The moral codes and rules of Christianity are much different than Islam, teach acceptance forgiveness--have you ever heard of Islam forgiving a Jew and moving on?--and children are not educated in the massive hate brainwashing strategy which Islam currently practices. Yes, I hear all the time, "It's not Islam, it's the people who interpret it." Well, normally, I would accept this excuse, but when I hear it coming from almost every mosque in the Middle East, Southwest Asia, and Northern Africa, I tend to think, hell no, this excuse is just that--an excuse to prevent most people from taking a closer notice on the overall implications of Islam.
There was an essay in the New York Times Magazine on Sunday that examined the idea of "Islamic democracy". It made the interesting point that what we would term "moderate Islam" was dominant throughout the Middle East. With the spread of modernization, the old social structures (read: mosques) were being supplanted or suppressed (Turkey). In effect, Islam was a moderating influence until it was attacked, and radical Islam grew to take its place.

I'm not sure how far I would go with this argument (Turkey, for example, did many of these things under Ataturk, but has stayed pretty secular) but it's an interesting counterpoint to the idea that Islam is inherently a religion of violence.
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Old 12-06-04, 12:02 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
Yep - this is one of the major problems (what the press chooses to cover), and something I've been pointing out in the last 3 years.
If the moderate voices spoke up often enough, perhaps they would get more coverage. I'm thinking mainly about moderate governments. However, actions do speak louder than words. One can argue that those moderate governments haven't taken sufficient action to combat the less moderate folks who tend to want to do people harm.
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