Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Ramadan: 14yr old boy dies after 85 lashes for breaking the fast

Old 11-17-04, 09:28 PM
  #51  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,533
nomaan,

I don't think I said Iranians were Arab. Did I?

If I did--I'll have to look at my previous posts, I made a mistake. Most are Persian I do believe.

Muslim Clerics molest boys, too. So, if you're saying molestation is unique to Christianity, that's not the case.

But what we don't do in the US, is kill boys for missing their religious ceremonies or beat people ad nauseum for some kind of religious infraction.

When's the last time a 13-yr old boy has been killed for missing Christmas Mass?

The cultural rules of Muslim culture were derived from religion. I'm not saying that raising greyhounds is writtein in the Qu'ran and I'm not saying Aish is a mandatory food as per Qu'ran. What I'm mostly concerned with, is societal rules, which are the foundation of a culture and how it operates. Where do these societal rules come from?

Take a look at Christian religion, as we have legislation which closely match as well. We didn't outlaw prostitution because our culture just though it up one day over dinner. It was because the law came from a religious source. Religion influences the way a culture behaves....

...and some religions are more influencial over culture than others.

Since you even provided the information that Christianity is OLDER than Islam, then why do we still have the behaviors which are reminiscent of decades ago versus a "modern" Christian society? The answer is right in front of you: Islam. Islam is the reason for the deprivation.

Islam is a religion of dominance and submission. I'm not saying Christianity is not, but Islam takes the cake in that area. All religions are not the same. Some are more tolerant than others. Are you saying that all religions are all the same and are equal?

by saying islam is responsible for the way arabs are acting and has taken over arab culture, i suggest you try reading about arab culture before islam.

And what will I find? Why do Muslims act they way they do?

Obviously we can debate this for years, but the bottom line you seem to be encouraging, is that Christianity is no different than Islam. And to that, I have to disagree, because I don't think all relgions are the same. I'm not saying Christianity is the only and correct religion, I'm just saying Islam seems to be higher on the domination and submission pole.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 11-17-04 at 09:37 PM.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-17-04, 10:39 PM
  #52  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Aostin, TX, USA
Posts: 19,876
Welcome to George Bush's Iran.
Y2K Falcon is offline  
Old 11-17-04, 11:23 PM
  #53  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 22,995
Originally posted by nomaan
most muslim nations were colonized, and have only recently become independent (60-70 years).

comparing these young nations with countries that have had independence for centuries is foolish.
What about China, India, & Vietnam? Two of them are still under communist rule and all used to be under colonialism. Look on the idealogy side instead.
Myster X is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 12:15 AM
  #54  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: QC, CA
Posts: 2,718
Originally posted by Myster X
What about China, India, & Vietnam? Two of them are still under communist rule and all used to be under colonialism. Look on the idealogy side instead.
you're putting india in there? did you read about what happened in gujrat recently. do you know the caste system is still in their society. have you seen the movie Maya? did you read about the girl that was married to a stray dog so that it'll bring rain to the village? there are so many stories here .... i'm not implying that this is common practise. but its still happening.
nomaan is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 12:38 AM
  #55  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: QC, CA
Posts: 2,718
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
nomaan,

I don't think I said Iranians were Arab. Did I?

If I did--I'll have to look at my previous posts, I made a mistake. Most are Persian I do believe.

Muslim Clerics molest boys, too. So, if you're saying molestation is unique to Christianity, that's not the case.

But what we don't do in the US, is kill boys for missing their religious ceremonies or beat people ad nauseum for some kind of religious infraction.

When's the last time a 13-yr old boy has been killed for missing Christmas Mass?

The cultural rules of Muslim culture were derived from religion. I'm not saying that raising greyhounds is writtein in the Qu'ran and I'm not saying Aish is a mandatory food as per Qu'ran. What I'm mostly concerned with, is societal rules, which are the foundation of a culture and how it operates. Where do these societal rules come from?

Take a look at Christian religion, as we have legislation which closely match as well. We didn't outlaw prostitution because our culture just though it up one day over dinner. It was because the law came from a religious source. Religion influences the way a culture behaves....

...and some religions are more influencial over culture than others.

Since you even provided the information that Christianity is OLDER than Islam, then why do we still have the behaviors which are reminiscent of decades ago versus a "modern" Christian society? The answer is right in front of you: Islam. Islam is the reason for the deprivation.

Islam is a religion of dominance and submission. I'm not saying Christianity is not, but Islam takes the cake in that area. All religions are not the same. Some are more tolerant than others. Are you saying that all religions are all the same and are equal?

by saying islam is responsible for the way arabs are acting and has taken over arab culture, i suggest you try reading about arab culture before islam.

And what will I find? Why do Muslims act they way they do?

Obviously we can debate this for years, but the bottom line you seem to be encouraging, is that Christianity is no different than Islam. And to that, I have to disagree, because I don't think all relgions are the same. I'm not saying Christianity is the only and correct religion, I'm just saying Islam seems to be higher on the domination and submission pole.
mid eastern muslims are arabs. you lumped iran in there .. so its obvious what you were getting at.

But what we don't do in the US, is kill boys for missing their religious ceremonies or beat people ad nauseum for some kind of religious infraction.

you're saying its like its a common things. this is the first time i've heard something like this happening. in most muslims countries, mullahs are not sitting in the courts. in pakistan, a 14yr old breaking a fast would be a non-issue. it wouldn't even make the community paper.

christianity vs islam
i'm not comparing religions. they're all different. most have basic common themes. what i take issue with is the blatant disregard for what is at fault. you blame the religion. i see nothing in the religion that says that breaking the fast is a crime. as i said, it could be considered a sin, but thats not for the government to worry about.

anyone could be molesting boys. no religion/country has monoply over that. if the mullahs were in the news like the priests have been, we would've been talking about how islam backs this practice. but since its christianity, its every man for himself.


iranexpress.com

i still have my doubts over this website. how come no other news source is covering this story. even a google search has come up with nothing ..

Here is a whois lookup
Registrant:
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
15111 N Hayden Rd., Suite 160
PMB353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com
Domain Name: IRANPRESSNEWS.COM
Created on: 10-Sep-04
Expires on: 10-Sep-05
Last Updated on: 10-Sep-04

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration [email protected]
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
15111 N Hayden Rd., Suite 160
PMB353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax --
Technical Contact:
Private, Registration [email protected]
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
15111 N Hayden Rd., Suite 160
PMB353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.HAPPYSUPPORT.COM
NS3.HAPPYSUPPORT.COM


This story could just be a frickin hoax.

he Holy Bible has its stories of a tempermental God, but have you read the Qu'ran in comparison to the Holy Bible

have you really read the quran? why don't you post some of this objectionable material, and i'll clear it up for you. if you're read the quran, and you've seen something that islam is intolerant, then i'm sure you've read it without context
nomaan is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 07:05 AM
  #56  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,533
I could post dozens of quotations from the Qu'ran (and have in the past), but they would just be explained away as to not be taken literally. But apparently, it is being taken more literally, and has so for thousands of years.

About the story being false.

Well, here's another incident for you. October 16, 2004.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...hp?storyid=520

Chances are, the 13-yr old boy being killed, is not a fake article. Why would you need to fake an article when behaviors such as this happen on a regualr basis in Iran?

in pakistan, a 14yr old breaking a fast would be a non-issue. it wouldn't even make the community paper.

I wasn't aware that area of the country had such an "open" culture of reporting incidents like this. You make it sound like the Middle East---and areas concerning the Persian Gulf, North Africa, and Southwest Asia (to be geographically correct so I don't get corrected) would openly report such actions if initiated. I don't think so. This culture--come to think about it--is not in favor of expressing or reporting news like the US does. You look for a story, you risk death. Why do you think internet sites have exploded in the last 5 years. It's because those who do wish to report stories, can have a reasonably anonymous way of doing so, without getting tracked to where they live.

But it's not just this once incident. There are many incidents which make up my opinion of Islam, and I am sure others will agree, that it's the collective amount of incidents, which taint Islam.

Obviously we disagree, so I'll leave it at that. If you find out this was a fake article, then please post the info. If it isn't real, then it isn't real, but I have many other examples which would suffice, but I just happened to come across this latest incident.

Here's another Sharia incident only in Afghanistan:

http://www.afgha.com/?af=article&sid=46948

Here we have a 9-yr old given to a man as a bride as per custom. Even the current laws there ruled that she cannot leave her husband, even in cases of molestation. All of these actions orbit Islam.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 11-18-04 at 07:13 AM.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 08:58 AM
  #57  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: QC, CA
Posts: 2,718
""I could post dozens of quotations from the Qu'ran (and have in the past), but they would just be explained away as to not be taken literally. But apparently, it is being taken more literally, and has so for thousands of years.""

what this tells me is that you're happy with what you know. and if there is a chance that you understand something incorrectly, you don't want to be corrected.

""I wasn't aware that area of the country had such an "open" culture of reporting incidents like this. You make it sound like the Middle East---and areas concerning the Persian Gulf, North Africa, and Southwest Asia (to be geographically correct so I don't get corrected) would openly report such actions if initiated. I don't think so. This culture--come to think about it--is not in favor of expressing or reporting news like the US does. You look for a story, you risk death. Why do you think internet sites have exploded in the last 5 years""

again, this is such a non-story in my country. heck, it is not even at the level of a cat got stuck in the tree, and firefighters came to rescue it.

""It's because those who do wish to report stories, can have a reasonably anonymous way of doing so, without getting tracked to where they live.""

internet works both ways. yes, it gives you anonymity to report on incidents that would've gone unreported for fear of ones safety. it also allows you to fabricate stories.

""But it's not just this once incident. There are many incidents which make up my opinion of Islam, and I am sure others will agree, that it's the collective amount of incidents, which taint Islam.""

see this is where i have an issue. i came to this thread because instead of blaming iran and its people, your're blaming the religion as well. islam doesn't say that a boy has to be lashed for breaking his fast.

centuries ago, if you were living in the time of the crusades, would you be blaming the christians for killing the jews and the muslims, or christianity. i don't see that as the same thing.
nomaan is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 09:51 AM
  #58  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,533
what this tells me is that you're happy with what you know. and if there is a chance that you understand something incorrectly, you don't want to be corrected.

Actually, I announce when I make a mistake, and I also frequently provide references. If I understand something incorrectly, I also make a point of this. I just simply do not want to post a plethera of quotes, only to be told, "DVD Polizei, you're wrong.", without even explaining why I'm wrong.

again, this is such a non-story in my country. heck, it is not even at the level of a cat got stuck in the tree, and firefighters came to rescue it.

I'm assuming you're from Pakistan? Pakistan hasn't had a Shariah type law until the past few years, so I could see how would think I'm being way off. Musharraf has been quite "vigilant" shall we say, in preventing Sharia from taking over his country. Obviously, this is why he's had a few assassination attempts on his life. But, is this typical of other countries in the area?
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 11:03 AM
  #59  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: QC, CA
Posts: 2,718
you're mixing things up. i'm not sure what you think pakistan is like, but go here. thats the #2 english paper in pakistan. that fashion portion is in that on a weekly basis. comparing us to our nieghbours (iran, afghanistan) is way off.
we have people living in villages practising ancient pre-islamic cultures to these mod-squad elites to the fanatically religious types. most of the population falls in the middle class category. and they're not the fanatically religious crowd. recent events like the US attacks on afghanistan, and iraq are pushing people towards that. as it stands now, there is no chance for a religious minded party to come to power in pakistan. I am a big supporter of Musharaf and if i remember correctly, there was a lot of flak for this guy when he came into power, saying pakistan is not democratic. pakistan is not ready to be a democracy, and it needs the army incharge to make things go smoothly. as for the assasination attempts, its not for blocking shariah or whatever, its for his support for the US, and him going after foreign/local jihadi types in pakistan. thats the reason for attempts on his life.


As for the quran issue, like i mentioned earlier, i'll clear it up for you, meaning i'll give you a little more than 'DVD Polizei, you're wrong'.

Last edited by nomaan; 11-18-04 at 11:06 AM.
nomaan is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 05:19 PM
  #60  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
covenant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,906
Your moderate interpretation of the passages mean nothing.

Those who are doing the horrible acts are using the same passages as proof-text for the violence they commit.

Don't waste your time interpreting for us. Educate your brothers.

Many muslims mistakenly believe Islam is a religion of violence based upon the violent local culture they've grown up in.

Last edited by covenant; 11-18-04 at 05:22 PM.
covenant is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 07:34 PM
  #61  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: QC, CA
Posts: 2,718
how do you know how i'm interpreting the passages? i'm sure there are others who are trying to educate the group you're referring too. I'll stick to this group.
nomaan is offline  
Old 11-18-04, 09:01 PM
  #62  
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,533
nomaan,

I think it's rather easy to put the reasons for assassination attempts on Musharraf on the backs of American interests. A little too easy. What we have to ask ourselves, is just who were these people who tried to assassinate Musharraf. Terrorist groups who conduct such actions, are by definition, a conservative if not ultra-conservative group, who do not want any kind of western influence, AND do not want change--whether it be western or a leader who does not want to rule with an ultra-conservative hand.

Musharraf has battled with the MMA (Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal--a collection of six conservative religious parties) and this political group is rather hardline, so it's not too difficult to see a motive here. Also, after 9/11 he publicly denounced the Taliban, so there was another reason to dislike him. True, he probably did this because of US pressure, but then again, the results would have been the same. Whether it was the US who pressured him, or whether he just decided he didn't want to align himself with a bunch of ultra-conservative freaks, the same result would have happened--assassination attempt.

You can say the US was the reason for all of this, but I would tend to think even if the US was not involved, and Musharraf made some decisions counter to conservative interests, they would want him assassinated just as much.

I mean, look at what happened recently with the Arafat situation. A group of Al Aqsa stormed Arafat's burial site, shooting over the head of Mahmoud Abbas, and saying basically if he didn't go along with the same policies as Arafat, the next time they would be aiming their assault weapons at him.

This entire geographic area has a history of domination and submission, and if you don't go along, you die. This is reminiscent of what I was talking about earlier.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 11-18-04 at 09:04 PM.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-19-04, 01:02 PM
  #63  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
covenant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,906
Originally posted by nomaan
how do you know how i'm interpreting the passages?
I guarentee you'll not read a passage and agree it calls for justified violence against Infidels.
covenant is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.