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Report: U.S. Marine Kills Wounded Iraqi

Old 11-15-04, 09:56 PM
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Report: U.S. Marine Kills Wounded Iraqi

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._prisoner_shot

NEW YORK - A U.S. Marine shot and killed a wounded and apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, according to dramatic pool television pictures broadcast Monday. A Marine spokesman in Washington said the shooting was under investigation.

The shooting Saturday was videotaped by pool correspondent Kevin Sites of NBC television, who said three other previously wounded prisoners in the mosque apparently also had been shot again by the Marines inside the mosque.

The incident played out as the Marines 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, returned to the unidentified Fallujah mosque Saturday. Sites was embedded with the unit.

Sites reported that a different Marine unit had come under fire from the mosque on Friday. Those Marines stormed the building, killing ten men and wounding five others, Sites said. The Marines said the fighters in the mosque had been armed with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 rifles.

The Marines had treated the wounded, he reported, left them behind and continued on Friday with their drive to retake the city from insurgents who have been battling U.S.-led occupation forces in Iraq (news - web sites) with increasing ferocity and violence in recent months.

On the video as the camera moved into the mosque during the Saturday incident, a Marine can be heard shouting obscenities in the background, yelling that one of the men was only pretending to be dead.

The video then showed a Marine raising his rifle toward a prisoner laying on the floor of the mosque but neither NBC nor CNN showed the bullet hitting the man. At that moment the video was blacked out but the report of the rifle could be heard.

The blacked out portion of the video tape, provided later to Associated Press Television News and other members of the network pool, showed the bullet striking the man in the upper body, possibly the head. His blood splatters on the wall behind him and his body goes limp.

Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.

The events on the videotape began as some of the Marines from the unit accompanied by Sites approached the mosque on Saturday, a day after it was stormed by other Marines.

Gunfire can be heard from inside the mosque, and at its entrance, Marines who were already in the building emerge. They are asked by an approaching Marine lieutenant if there were insurgents inside and if the Marines had shot any of them. A Marine can be heard responding affirmatively. The lieutenant then asks if they were armed and fellow Marine shrugs.

Sites' account said the wounded men, who he said were prisoners and who were hurt in the previous day's attack, had been shot again by the Marines on the Saturday visit.

The videotape showed two of the wounded men propped against the wall and Sites said they were bleeding to death. According his report, a third wounded man appeared already dead, while a fourth was severely wounded but breathing. The fifth was covered by a blanket but did not appear to have been shot again after the Marines returned. It was the fourth man who was shown being shot.

A spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon (news - web sites), Maj. Doug Powell, said the incident was "being investigated." He had no further details, other than to confirm the incident happened on Saturday and that the Marines involved were part of the 1st Marine Division.

The CNN broadcast of the pictures used pixilation to cover parts of the video that could lead to public identification of the Marines involved.

NBC's Robert Padavick told members of the U.S. television pool that the Pentagon had ordered NBC and other pool members to make sure the Marines identity was hidden because "they (the military authorities) are anticipating a criminal investigation as a result of this incident and do not want to implicate anybody ahead of that."

In New York, NBC spokeswoman Allison Gollust said the network did not broadcast the prisoner being shot because of the "graphic nature" of the video.

***********

I wish I could believe this was an isolated incident. I also wish I could see this kind of thing as an unfortunate but acceptable consequence of war. Only because it'd be a lot easier to swallow. But I don't.
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Old 11-15-04, 10:13 PM
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I wish I could feel offended by this. But I don't.
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Old 11-15-04, 10:22 PM
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At least he didn't behead the guy with a dull knife, like the enemy does.
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Old 11-15-04, 10:27 PM
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Sounds like they were tried under Rule .303
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Old 11-15-04, 10:30 PM
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apparently BBC and CNN are showing the videotape

why is it they refuse to show the footage of terrorists beheading innocents, but they don't have a problem with putting our military in a bad light?
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Old 11-15-04, 10:41 PM
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Re: Report: U.S. Marine Kills Wounded Iraqi

Originally posted by hahn
I wish I could believe this was an isolated incident.
Yeah, hahn, I'm sure the US soldiers are just one step from raping and pillaging across the Iraqi countryside.
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Old 11-15-04, 10:41 PM
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I saw this earlier and wondered who'd rush to be first in posting this.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:09 PM
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I wish I could believe this was an isolated incident. I also wish I could see this kind of thing as an unfortunate but acceptable consequence of war. Only because it'd be a lot easier to swallow. But I don't.
But, of course, you fully support the troops.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by Tommy Ceez
But, of course, you fully support the troops.
Yes, I do. But I don't condone acts like this. If the man was unarmed, then how do you know what his intentions were?
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Old 11-15-04, 11:24 PM
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I dont understand why that would be bad?
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Old 11-15-04, 11:24 PM
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Re: Re: Report: U.S. Marine Kills Wounded Iraqi

Originally posted by SunMonkey
Yeah, hahn, I'm sure the US soldiers are just one step from raping and pillaging across the Iraqi countryside.
Is that what I said?

While I hope that this kind of thing is not commonplace, I think in war, people do things they ordinarily would not do. I do not think this is unique or even rare. People do unthinkable things during wars. For examples, read the numerous Vietnam veteran stories that are online.

If we did not have laws or police around to protect us from serial killers or rapists, how much more often would it occur? It's not exactly infrequent in our society now. In a war situation, with practically no one policing them, there is FAR less chance that you would suffer any consequences. Killing becomes easy when you feel there is not only no consequences, but would even be approved of. See some of the sentiments here.

Last edited by hahn; 11-16-04 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:26 PM
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Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.


in addition, in the video it really isn't clear if the guy was actually wounded
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Old 11-15-04, 11:26 PM
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Now, now folks, stop swinging the ax at hahn. It's a legitimate story. The incident is under investigation, and if there are any guilty parties involved, they'll be punished. I do believe this is an isolated incident that occurred during one of the most intense fighting and raids carried out in this war. It certainly doesn't reflect the military as whole.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:28 PM
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double tapping is something i was taught in the military

we don't know all the facts of the situation yet
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Old 11-15-04, 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by mikehunt
Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.


in addition, in the video it really isn't clear if the guy was actually wounded
I'm not clear about what you're saying here. That it's okay to kill an unarmed man because a dead one was previously booby-trapped?

Also, does the guy being wounded factor into your decision as to whether he should be shot dead or not?

The videotape showed two of the wounded men propped against the wall and Sites said they were bleeding to death. According to his report, a third wounded man appeared already dead, while a fourth was severely wounded but breathing. The fifth was covered by a blanket but did not appear to have been shot again after the Marines returned. It was the fourth man who was shown being shot.
This is reported by someone who was there, not what can or cannot be determined by video.

Let's just say for argument's sake that the report IS accurate. Does that even affect your opinion about this incident? If it doesn't, then why bother arguing that the video doesn't show clear evidence?

Last edited by hahn; 11-15-04 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:30 PM
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http://media.militaryphotos.net/fall...h_shooting.avi
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Old 11-15-04, 11:32 PM
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enemy combatant, hands could not be seen, history of this type of thing being a trap. I can't really blame them

it's easy to criticize from your nice soft couch, but being there is another thing
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Old 11-15-04, 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by hahn
I'm not clear about what you're saying here. That it's okay to kill an unarmed man because a dead one was previously booby-trapped?

Also, does the guy being wounded factor into your decision as to whether he should be shot dead or not?
what is that thing when a murderer gets off for being wacko when he kills someone?
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Old 11-15-04, 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by mikehunt
enemy combatant, hands could not be seen, history of this type of thing being a trap. I can't really blame them

it's easy to criticize from your nice soft couch, but being there is another thing
We're going to be killing a hell of a lot of innocent people if we kill anyone we merely THINK has a booby trap. Who determines this? The individual soldier?
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Old 11-15-04, 11:38 PM
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Thanks for posting that vid.


Seems like the Marine took out what could have been a legitimate threat. The terrorist could have been faking he was dead to pull out a concealed weapon or detonate a bomb. The terrorists will use any tatic they can to score a few US troops dead....even faking dead.
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Old 11-15-04, 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
what is that thing when a murderer gets off for being wacko when he kills someone?
Are you trying to engage in a serious discussion, or are you just trying to bait me?
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Old 11-15-04, 11:51 PM
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Ok, who deleted all the hahn threads about the atrocities committed by everyone other than Americans? I know there were some of those in here.
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Old 11-16-04, 12:00 AM
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Unarmed soldiers have probably been killed as a result of actions like this. But it appears our soldiers have been killed by people playing dead. I don't blame our Marines for wanting to kill the enemy instead of them killing a Marine.
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Old 11-16-04, 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by hahn
We're going to be killing a hell of a lot of innocent people if we kill anyone we merely THINK has a booby trap. Who determines this? The individual soldier?
Some additional thoughts:

I believe this is why Vietnam turned into a disaster. We got to a point where we were suspicious of EVERYONE there because there were so many "booby traps". We started killing a lot of innocent people. Enough that it got to a point that the sentiments of the entire country turned against us.

The various political/religious factions in Iraq may hate each other. But they hate the outsider - us - even more. What's ironic is that we may end up uniting the country. Unfortunately, it will be against us.

A couple of quotes by Robert McNamara in the amazing documentary, Fog of War, I think are poignant here.

"We saw Vietnam as an element of the Cold War, not what they saw it as - a civil war. We were wrong."

"I think the human race needs to think more about killing. How much evil must we do in order to do good?"

"If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merits of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."

Last edited by hahn; 11-16-04 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 11-16-04, 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by X
Ok, who deleted all the hahn threads about the atrocities committed by everyone other than Americans? I know there were some of those in here.
I'll pretend you don't realize that we must hold ourselves to a higher ideal in order to expect the same from others.

And in that same vein, I'll also ignore the immature taunting undertone of your post in spite of the fact I'm trying to maintain a civil discussion here.

Last edited by hahn; 11-16-04 at 12:30 AM.
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