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Bin Laden Now Has Religious Approval To Use Nuke

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Bin Laden Now Has Religious Approval To Use Nuke

Old 11-13-04, 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by DVD Polizei

We should also be aware that OBL may not be the actual leader of the group responsible for such an attack, and we need to think about other groups besides AQ.

It may be 5 years, 10 years, or even 20 years, until we have a nuclear explosion in the US, but if you simply follow the past 50 years of Islam dominance, you should very well know a nuclear incident is just a matter of time, and it will indeed happen.

What the US needs to collectively think about, is how we are going to respond. I think the US needs to publicly make a statement, where if one of our cities is harmed by a nuke, we will unconditionally and without warning, strike at any city(s) of similar size(s) in the Middle East.

The Middle East needs to start taking responsibility for their terrorist groups. They are homegrown, and this hatred of the West is because of their religion, not because of current events. These people are taught to hate others, and Middle Eastern countries should bare the responsibility and possibility, that if something major happens in the US, there may not be a Middle East. There may not be a Mecca, or a Medina, and it is easily within the US's power to make it a nuclear wasteland.
I may not agree with all of the assumptions, but I think that this is ultimately the only workable tactic to take. I don't think it is the best solution, but unless the presumable majority or moderate muslims have a stake in stopping terrorist acts abroad, nothing will change. There will never be a shortage of people willing to give up an unpleasent existance in the name of God. I doubt that there are quite as many people willing to work a second job to support the radicals. And as long as people can offer token support from the comfort of their own homes with no real fear of reprisals, the support will continue. However, while I think that short term, holding a city hostage (the holiest of cities no less, from their pov) will do little to endear us in the hearts of anyone in the region, if it is a beleived threat, I think it is the best bet for our security. Now, if that security is worth paying that price is another question entirely. But counting on someone elses sense of self preservation to rat out a neighbor is a much better bet than counting on their percieved moral obligation to strangers an ocean away.
Old 11-13-04, 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by eXcentris
And I don't get the obsession with nukes either. In reality, a major terrorist attack is much more likely to involve chemical or biological weapons.
Signifigantly more likely. But chemical will almost never have the scale (unless terrorists can produce mass quantites of say the bottulism toxin). And If biological has the scale, they're going to be suffering too. For all of the incredible difficulty in obtaining a nuclear weapon (hell, countries have a hard time. It can only be harder for a terrorist group) there is no better payoff with so little chance of real repercussion.
Old 11-13-04, 09:52 PM
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I don't think it is the best solution, but unless the presumable majority or moderate muslims have a stake in stopping terrorist acts abroad, nothing will change.
the only way this is going to end, is when their peer group begin to place a stigma on that type of mindset/behaviour.
democracy isn't going to do it.
bombing cities isn't going to do it.
admonition has to come from within that community, and it has to be severe to discourage that kind of stuff in the future.
having a western Christian democracy dictate 'proper behaviour' to these people isn't going to do jack.
and i'm afraid, the only way terrorism is going to get stigmatized within the Islamic community, is when it has finally gone too far
-i.e millions of causualities or some widespread nucleur destruction w/ attendant fallout.

the problem is, so many of these 'red staters' have given an imprimatur to this governement to pursue policies that alienate the rest of the world from our cause.
the typical 'red stater' would see this as being weak, but in pursuing their idea of strength, they are basically fostering a "well, they kind of did get what they deserved" attitude that is going to undermine any chance of social stigmatization for quite a while.

in other words, our policies are not really doing anything constructive other than feeding a national bloodlust ("Kill 'em!...Nuke 'em! Back to the stone age baby!") which in turn promotes either indifference or outright animosity rather than circumspection amongst moderate muslims-.
and if you can't get the billion or so moderates on your side, and on the contrary activiely pursue actions that drieve them even further away- how the hell are you going to mentally disengage a small militant faction of them?

at least thats what i see going on.
i could be wrong, of course.

as far a biological terrorism goes, i think we are more likely to see 'human bio-bombs' unleased where travelers congregate- thereby increasing the radius of infection to points far beyond the epicenter.

hate to even give voice to these kinds of things, but you have to think the unthinkable with these people.
can you imagine the quarantine problem with a air traveler infected with ebola roaming around a major airport?

Last edited by ckolchak; 11-13-04 at 09:57 PM.
Old 11-13-04, 10:15 PM
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As a geneticist (now computer geek) that has actually worked at the CDC, my biggest worry is biological weapons. Because they can have an impact far beyond what the creators intended. And terrorists don't really care about their target. But unless the average muslim is made to fear the radicals...
Old 11-13-04, 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
good point about bloodlust blah blah blah
I agree that any solution that is dependant on satiating the bloodlust of a populace is going to go nowhere at some point. But. Any solution that dosen't motivate the general middle easter populace to do the right thing (by our standards of course) won't be of much use to us. And that is exactly the only thing that we should consider. If we can make our ideals transferable, more power to us. But if we have to use fear to keep our ideals from being threatened, so be it.

Just a thought.
Old 11-14-04, 04:47 AM
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Originally posted by stp115
But if we have to use fear to keep our ideals from being threatened, so be it.

"fear will keep the local systems in line...fear of this battle station!"
Old 11-14-04, 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by stp115
As a geneticist (now computer geek) that has actually worked at the CDC, my biggest worry is biological weapons. Because they can have an impact far beyond what the creators intended. And terrorists don't really care about their target. But unless the average muslim is made to fear the radicals...
Same here. Sure, a nuclear weapon could kill thousands and turn our biggest cities into a radioactive wasteland, but set loose a virulent, deadly, airborne pathogen with no cure and the entire world is fucked.
Old 11-14-04, 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by DVD Polizei

What the US needs to collectively think about, is how we are going to respond. I think the US needs to publicly make a statement, where if one of our cities is harmed by a nuke, we will unconditionally and without warning, strike at any city(s) of similar size(s) in the Middle East.

The Middle East needs to start taking responsibility for their terrorist groups. They are homegrown, and this hatred of the West is because of their religion, not because of current events. These people are taught to hate others, and Middle Eastern countries should bare the responsibility and possibility, that if something major happens in the US, there may not be a Middle East. There may not be a Mecca, or a Medina, and it is easily within the US's power to make it a nuclear wasteland.
My guess is the call will not be for any city, but ALL cities. People here will call for fire and brimstone to be rained on every major concentration of radical islamists and quickly. The difficulty will be in restraining the response. The first target is obvious.
Old 11-14-04, 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
the only way this is going to end, is when their peer group begin to place a stigma on that type of mindset/behaviour.
democracy isn't going to do it.
bombing cities isn't going to do it.
admonition has to come from within that community, and it has to be severe to discourage that kind of stuff in the future.
having a western Christian democracy dictate 'proper behaviour' to these people isn't going to do jack.
and i'm afraid, the only way terrorism is going to get stigmatized within the Islamic community, is when it has finally gone too far
-i.e millions of causualities or some widespread nucleur destruction w/ attendant fallout.

the problem is, so many of these 'red staters' have given an imprimatur to this governement to pursue policies that alienate the rest of the world from our cause.
the typical 'red stater' would see this as being weak, but in pursuing their idea of strength, they are basically fostering a "well, they kind of did get what they deserved" attitude that is going to undermine any chance of social stigmatization for quite a while.

in other words, our policies are not really doing anything constructive other than feeding a national bloodlust ("Kill 'em!...Nuke 'em! Back to the stone age baby!") which in turn promotes either indifference or outright animosity rather than circumspection amongst moderate muslims-.
and if you can't get the billion or so moderates on your side, and on the contrary activiely pursue actions that drieve them even further away- how the hell are you going to mentally disengage a small militant faction of them?

at least thats what i see going on.
i could be wrong, of course.

as far a biological terrorism goes, i think we are more likely to see 'human bio-bombs' unleased where travelers congregate- thereby increasing the radius of infection to points far beyond the epicenter.

hate to even give voice to these kinds of things, but you have to think the unthinkable with these people.
can you imagine the quarantine problem with a air traveler infected with ebola roaming around a major airport?
I think you are off on what the problem is big time. The problem is people here think they understand the dynamics of the middle east. The overwhelming majority DON'T. Consistently throughout history people have not tried to understand religious and political dynamics.

1) You cannot negotiate with people blinded by religious fervor.

2) You cannot expect other cultures to think like you.

3) You cannot extend your set of values to others and expect them to follow them.

4) You CAN try to understand their culture, religion, and other things that motivate them.

5) You may or may not like the answers to #4, but you have to deal with them and approach the problem using that vital information.

Observations:

1) Violence has been what people respect for over 2000 years in that part of the world. [as for Bin Laden.. some radical Imam would have given him a Fatwa any time... it all plays into this] Biblical justice and blood feuds keep the cycle going.

2) Peacemakers get stifled or assassinated or do not follow through for fear of their lives/loss of power.

3) Relative calm has been established only by the 'sword' between different peoples.

4) Oppression has given these people little hope in this world.

5) Most are willing to sacrifice for a better future (including their own lives). [strange... but we used to think this way more so than now..but we seem not to understand it....could this be common ground]

6) Even when strides appear to be made, corruption prevents any benefit to the populace.

7) Words are just words and don't mean anything. Actions are what matters. [words are for show and don't necessarily reflect reality....]

[example: the PA says it gave up the destruction of Israel, but it's actions are diametrically opposite... Hamas and others keep it as an unstated aim instead of a stated one]

8) Anyone and everyone is an acceptable pawn in your struggle for power.. but noone accepts responsibility for failure.





[every Arab country has used the Palestinians as a pawn.. yet, noone wants them. But, almost all have cited their cause for one reason or another since before 1948...they had a state in 1948, but it wasn't enough for them or any Arab country..]

Last edited by matchpenalty; 11-14-04 at 06:06 AM.
Old 11-14-04, 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
the only way this is going to end, is when their peer group begin to place a stigma on that type of mindset/behaviour.
democracy isn't going to do it.
bombing cities isn't going to do it.
admonition has to come from within that community, and it has to be severe to discourage that kind of stuff in the future.

the problem is, so many of these 'red staters' have given an imprimatur to this governement to pursue policies that alienate the rest of the world from our cause.
You were doing good until you brought politics in to it. [OB-DVD: "gentlemen! No talking polotics in the politics forum!" ]

Is it the muslims problem or not? I've gone back and forth on this and finally came to the conclusion that it is. The moderate community has to completely repudiate the ideas of the extremists and stigmatize it to the extent that that "racist" has been stigmatized.

I think you can draw a few solutions to the way the KKK was dealt with in the US. There is a stigma attached to them and their ideas that comes from their own "base", the white population. The muslim community must attach this same stigma to the extrimists. They have to know that even their base considers their ideas radically unacceptable. At the same time the federal government cracked down on violence, even when that violence was supported by the local officials. In this case that means invading Afghanistan and bombing terrorist camps and training facilities (not that there are any of these left out in the open.)

I think maybe this is picking up, at least in Europe. I see several muslin protest marches coming up in response to the murder of Van Gogh. That's a good sign. Solving the palestinian problems would go a long way to helping this. It won't matter to the extremists, they'll just harp on something else, but it should help with the moderates.

And finally, the rest of the world is not alienated to our cause. We may not agree on everything, but that's the way things go. It just so happens that the US doesn't need the rest of the world to agree to implement policies; the rest of the world can't do that. Most of the world agrees with the US in general, and even with most of the details. It's just a few of the details that we don't agree on, which is nothing new. It's not really a surprise that we disagree on the details that stem from our core values, otherwise we wouldn't be America.
Old 11-14-04, 08:38 AM
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gcbrowni,

I do agree with you here. The responsibility mostly lies on Muslims themselves.
Old 11-14-04, 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
the problem is, so many of these 'red staters'...
I'm so sick of this term already it's not even funny. Election night fever? Too many MM maps? It doesn't even make any logical sense when you're talking about people's opinions.

And I live in a blue state, so I MUST be right!
Old 11-14-04, 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by matchpenalty
I think you are off on what the problem is big time....

1) You cannot negotiate with people blinded by religious fervor.

2) You cannot expect other cultures to think like you.

3) You cannot extend your set of values to others and expect them to follow them.

4) You CAN try to understand their culture, religion, and other things that motivate them.

5) You may or may not like the answers to #4, but you have to deal with them and approach the problem using that vital information.
my writing skills obviously need a lot of work, because i am clearly not getting across the ideas i intended to -
i agree with every single point there.
100%.
those are all excellant reasons why an outside agent, trying to institute a western style democracy in Iraq, is doomed to failure.
it may be a very noble intention, but its amazingly inappropriate to the circumstance.
the only way i could see democracy taking a foothold, is if the majority of population rose up and initiated it themselves.
i tend to believe that a western, Chrisitian coaliation doing most of the heavy work and calling the shots vis avis force, is probably going to feed into a mindset that the west is emasculating the arabs.

and Thor, 'red stater' is merely a euphamism for the mindset that vehemently rejects the suppostions outlined by matchpenalty above- and supports this administration and its policies as they have been sold i.e "nuance is for east coast liberal wussies".
or the general dumbing down of the conflict here to a simple-minded set of alternative choices to appeal to the average, inebriated Nascar dad.

sorry if i wasn't clear on that.
Old 11-14-04, 04:09 PM
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Thor,

We live in a BLUE STATE, but we're RED INSIDE!
Old 11-14-04, 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by ckolchak
my writing skills obviously need a lot of work, because i am clearly not getting across the ideas i intended to -
i agree with every single point there.
100%.
those are all excellant reasons why an outside agent, trying to institute a western style democracy in Iraq, is doomed to failure.
it may be a very noble intention, but its amazingly inappropriate to the circumstance.
the only way i could see democracy taking a foothold, is if the majority of population rose up and initiated it themselves.
i tend to believe that a western, Chrisitian coaliation doing most of the heavy work and calling the shots vis avis force, is probably going to feed into a mindset that the west is emasculating the arabs.

and Thor, 'red stater' is merely a euphamism for the mindset that vehemently rejects the suppostions outlined by matchpenalty above- and supports this administration and its policies as they have been sold i.e "nuance is for east coast liberal wussies".
or the general dumbing down of the conflict here to a simple-minded set of alternative choices to appeal to the average, inebriated Nascar dad.

sorry if i wasn't clear on that.
oh..by the way.... I happen to live in a 'blue state'. but you would consider me a 'red stater'...
Old 11-14-04, 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by matchpenalty
oh..by the way.... I happen to live in a 'blue state'. but you would consider me a 'red stater'...

congragulations.
Old 11-14-04, 09:52 PM
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Republicans are RED,
Democrats are BLUE
But cheer up bruthah
We still love yewwwwww!
Old 11-14-04, 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by ckolchak


and i'm afraid, the only way terrorism is going to get stigmatized within the Islamic community, is when it has finally gone too far
-i.e millions of causualities or some widespread nucleur destruction w/ attendant fallout.

it already has gone too far. its rather pathetic that the worldwide muslim community has been virtually silent on their problems within.
Old 11-15-04, 05:17 PM
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I've been thinking a little about the Dutch issue. The muslim in that case was a long term resident, not a recent import. The islamic community can't blame nuts from outside for this incident. I think that's what has probabally spurred the large scale protests in the Netherlands and other nearby countries. Had it been just another recent import from the middle east then the local community would have made excuses and not done anything.

Whenever I hear something like happen there seem to be some canned responses from the local communities. "He wasn't a muslim, true muslins don't do that." or "What did the victim expect given what they did?" Both of those are cop outs by the muslim community. The second is fare worse in my opinion. Does anyone remember the 60 minutes interviews with the muslim kids in the Chicago (?) schools who were trying to justify suicide bombings?

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