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Help me understand 'moral values'

Old 11-11-04, 07:53 AM
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Help me understand 'moral values'

'Values' Help Shape Bush Re-Election (Fox News)

Moral Values: A Decisive Issue? (CBS News)

For seventy-nine percent of those who voted Bush, 'moral values' were a crucial issue, over the economy or terrorism.

As an amoral left-wing non-American, I have trouble grasping this notion. Could any righteous citizens explain what 'moral values' mean to them?
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Old 11-11-04, 08:10 AM
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read the other threads on it. many here agree that "moral values" is too broad an issue to narrow it down. to some it means gay marriage, to others its abortion, to others its the war in iraq, etc.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:30 AM
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Also, "moral values" was not an issue most important to 79% of the electorate. You are reading that incorrectly. Rather, of voter who stated that "moral values" was the most important issue, 79% of them voted for the President.

If I recall correctly, and I don't feel like looking it up, "moral values" was the most important issue for little more than a quarter of the voters, with very similar numbers holding true for the War on Terrorism/Security and the Economy, to a slightly smaller degree.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:35 AM
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We're not getting all these numbers from "exit polls" are we? We know how accurate those were on election day.
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Old 11-11-04, 08:36 AM
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Pharoh,

Did you happen to see Pat Cadell (sp ?) yesterday on Fox?
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Old 11-11-04, 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
Also, "moral values" was not an issue most important to 79% of the electorate. You are reading that incorrectly. Rather, of voter who stated that "moral values" was the most important issue, 79% of them voted for the President.

If I recall correctly, and I don't feel like looking it up, "moral values" was the most important issue for little more than a quarter of the voters, with very similar numbers holding true for the War on Terrorism/Security and the Economy, to a slightly smaller degree.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pag.../epolls.0.html

MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE
BUSH KERRY NADER


Taxes (5%) 57% 43% 0%

Education (4%) 26% 73% *

Iraq (15%) 26% 73% 0%

Terrorism (19%) 86% 14% 0%

Economy/Jobs (20%) 18% 80% 0%

Moral Values (22%) 80% 18% 1%

Health Care (8%) 23% 77% *
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Old 11-11-04, 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
Pharoh,

Did you happen to see Pat Cadell (sp ?) yesterday on Fox?

No, but somebody did mention something about it to me. I understand he wasn't too kind to some in the Dem party. Is this accurate? What did he have to say?
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Old 11-11-04, 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by Venusian
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pag.../epolls.0.html

MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE
BUSH KERRY NADER


Taxes (5%) 57% 43% 0%

Education (4%) 26% 73% *

Iraq (15%) 26% 73% 0%

Terrorism (19%) 86% 14% 0%

Economy/Jobs (20%) 18% 80% 0%

Moral Values (22%) 80% 18% 1%

Health Care (8%) 23% 77% *
It's a very strange poll. They lumped all the "moral values" together to get a high number, but why didn't they lump Iraq and Terrorism together? Those have more in common then random moral values (abortion, gay marriage, stem cells, etc..)
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Old 11-11-04, 09:55 AM
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In context of this election, moral values = not letting judges nor mayors unilaterally declare that gays are entitled to marry IMHO.
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Old 11-11-04, 10:03 AM
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I think the following all equally applied as 'moral values' in this election:

Prayer in schools/"God" in Pledge of Allegiance
Stem Cell Research
Partial Birth Abortion
Same-sex marriage
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Old 11-11-04, 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
No, but somebody did mention something about it to me. I understand he wasn't too kind to some in the Dem party. Is this accurate? What did he have to say?
He simply asked the relevant question: "When is the Democratic Party going to awaken?"

He gave some rather startling exit poll figures in the states that had a referendum on the ballot banning gay marriages. It seems that 60% of the Kerry voters also voted for the ban.
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Old 11-11-04, 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by Red Dog
In context of this election, moral values = not letting judges nor mayors unilaterally declare that gays are entitled to marry IMHO.
I don't believe that. I remember seeing a bunch of pre-nov2 polls on what issues people were worried about, and same sex marriage was always at the bottom of the list.
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Old 11-11-04, 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
Rather, of voter who stated that "moral values" was the most important issue, 79% of them voted for the President.
Man, that makes a heck of a lot more sense.
Originally posted by joeblow69
It's a very strange poll. They lumped all the "moral values" together to get a high number, but why didn't they lump Iraq and Terrorism together?
What seemed strange to me about this is that voters would pick Bush so highly for terrorism and Kerry so highly for Iraq. But then I realized: Kerry voters are more likely to say that Iraq is the big issue and Bush voters are more likely to say that terrorism is the big issue.

These numbers can be deceiving if they're just glanced over. They don't indicate that 73% of the people think Kerry would handle Iraq better and 86% thinking Kerry would handle terrorism better, which is how I originally read it and was surprised.
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Old 11-11-04, 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by joeblow69
I don't believe that. I remember seeing a bunch of pre-nov2 polls on what issues people were worried about, and same sex marriage was always at the bottom of the list.
Maybe that's because the media who commissioned the pre-election polls wanted you to think that same-sex marriage was at the bottom of the list as an issue for the voters.
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Old 11-11-04, 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by joeblow69
I don't believe that. I remember seeing a bunch of pre-nov2 polls on what issues people were worried about, and same sex marriage was always at the bottom of the list.
Well, maybe some voters were split on all the other issues but gay marriage was the deciding factor so they said it was the "most important." Which seems stupid, but who knows how people answer these polls. There are a lot of reasons this could or could not be. And the vague question doesn't really help us here.
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Old 11-11-04, 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Geofferson
I think the following all equally applied as 'moral values' in this election:

Prayer in schools/"God" in Pledge of Allegiance
Stem Cell Research
Partial Birth Abortion
Same-sex marriage
You're forgetting a big one. The voters' evaluation of the moral character of the candidate.

I know that's not supposed to matter since Clinton but thankfully it appears to be coming back.
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Old 11-11-04, 12:58 PM
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Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by Grubert
'Values' Help Shape Bush Re-Election (Fox News)

Moral Values: A Decisive Issue? (CBS News)

For seventy-nine percent of those who voted Bush, 'moral values' were a crucial issue, over the economy or terrorism.

As an amoral left-wing non-American, I have trouble grasping this notion. Could any righteous citizens explain what 'moral values' mean to them?
GWB is a former alcoholic who cleaned himself up and became governor and president. for a while he was probably seen as a lost cause by his family. today he says what he means.

kerry is a rich kid who went to war, came back to talk bad about america and our military and then became a politician that says what people want to hear.

GWB was pretty consistent in his 2000 campaign promises and what he started doing before 9/11. Unlike Kerry. GWB is not afraid to take positions that are unpopular to a lot of people and that go against his values. Kerry tells people that he has a personal value system and one for public office. which one are you going to believe?
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Old 11-11-04, 02:00 PM
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Al, that's an interesting comment. It gives me insight in to the mind of the Bush-voter. You guys believe Bush has genuinely changed his entire personality; I'm a skeptic. You see Kerry "talk bad about america and our military." I see somebody with real character, who spoke out about the evils of the war.

When I see Bush, I see a phony. I hate to see yet another draft-dodger president posturing on veteran's day.

They're both rich kids...
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Old 11-11-04, 02:13 PM
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Re: Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by al_bundy
GWB is a former alcoholic who cleaned himself up and became governor and president.
I recognize that this "average joe" quality is very appealing to a lot of people. This is, in fact, how I view the typical American voter. They don't want someone who's savvy or sharp or brilliant. They appear to want just a typical, likable guy. I think many supporters regard Bush as a surrogate President: he does the kinds of things they would do if they were in office. "The Taliban attacked us? We'll attack them! Spain pisses us off? We're not even gonna take their call." That also explains why so many people take criticism of him personally... because they view Bush as <i>one of them.</i>

So when I hear talk of "values" and "trust" and "morality," I interpret this as a claim that Bush is cut of the same fiber as most Americans. They don't see him as a typical politician, arrogant and sophisticated and wealthy. They see him as themselves. They can imagine hanging out with him on the weekend, or having a beer with him.

I think that what we've seen is an expression of deep resentment by average America. They don't understand why we can't draw bright lines in the sand, why we can't just bomb the enemy and tell noncooperative allies to piss off. They don't like being told that religion is private, and should be kept out of government. They don't like being passed over for someone brighter or more gifted. They don't like being told that they don't understand issues, that things aren't always simple, that other wishes than their own must be respected.

The masses reelected GW out of spite. That's honestly what I believe. The masses feel intellectually oppressed, so they chose the guy they most identify with, who will promote their interests - religion, warfare, tax cuts - in disregard of traditional politics.

So that's how I interpret "moral values." To me, that means: "GW is basically just one of us." But I also find it trouble that this is who they want for President. Honestly, it sounds like the plot of a Pauly Shore movie.

- David Stein

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Old 11-11-04, 02:35 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by sfsdfd
So that's how I interpret "moral values." To me, that means: "GW is basically just one of us."
I see it more as "GW is the type of person I'd want my child to use as a role model or grow up to be like."

I don't think the president should be seen as just one of us, I'd like the president to be better. That was my biggest problem with Clinton. He was as scummy in his personal life as my scummiest friends (well, ex-friends) and showed me that anyone, no matter how lowlife, could be president. I hope that's changing.
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Old 11-11-04, 02:41 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by X
I see it more as "GW is the type of person I'd want my child to use as a role model or grow up to be like."
I agree that people see him this way. But I disagree that thisis a good basis for choosing a president. I only want someone who will do a good job - who will capably advance the rights of America and the American people, who will leave us better off than we were before.

So I don't care if the man is personally corrupt. It'd be <i>nice</i> to have a president who is also a role model, and it'd be <i>nice</i> to have a president who's likable. But all things being equal, these factors hold very low priorities in my president-choosing judgment.

- David Stein
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Old 11-11-04, 02:47 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by sfsdfd
So I don't care if the man is personally corrupt. It'd be <i>nice</i> to have a president who is also a role model, and it'd be <i>nice</i> to have a president who's likable. But all things being equal, these factors hold very low priorities in my president-choosing judgment.
And other people see it differently. That's why we have elections. However I think this moral evaluation is a strong factor and wishing it weren't or ignoring it will lose elections. Moral leadership is a big part of the job of president.

You might say that's a major distinction of the two parties and the Democrats are on the losing end of this issue and are likely to stay there as it's very fundamental to them. However these moral issues transcend religion and can't be blown off as only being important to the "bible-thumpers". And these issues can't be faked very well which is what the Democrats are now trying to figure out how to do.
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Old 11-11-04, 02:52 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Help me understand 'moral values'

Originally posted by X
However I think this moral evaluation is a strong factor and wishing it weren't or ignoring it will lose elections.
I recognize that - now more than ever. I think it bodes poorly for the country, in that it's going to distract our government from its core mission of running the country. I think this might have a long-term detrimental impact on America's position in the world, and that debating this trend will keep future generations of political science majors occupied for decades.

- David Stein
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Old 11-11-04, 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by Mammal
Al, that's an interesting comment. It gives me insight in to the mind of the Bush-voter. You guys believe Bush has genuinely changed his entire personality; I'm a skeptic. You see Kerry "talk bad about america and our military." I see somebody with real character, who spoke out about the evils of the war.

When I see Bush, I see a phony. I hate to see yet another draft-dodger president posturing on veteran's day.

They're both rich kids...
how many people talked bad about WW1, WW2 or Korea after the war in front of the US Senate? they were drafted, went overseas, came back and got on with their lives and remembered fallen comrades. there is a saying in the army "anything that happens or is said in the field, stays in the field."

If you listen to interviews with a lot of people from the red states they also hate hollywood. they don't like the morality of many of the products that the entertainment industry is selling. they see hollywood as being morally bankrupt with their single parents and britney type weddings that last 2 weeks. and of course the DNC is in the pockets of hollywood.
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Old 11-11-04, 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
I recognize that - now more than ever. I think it bodes poorly for the country, in that it's going to distract our government from its core mission of running the country. I think this might have a long-term detrimental impact on America's position in the world, and that debating this trend will keep future generations of political science majors occupied for decades.
There are enough people who have good moral character and are able to run the country. Let's just cull out the slimeballs early so we don't end up with bad choices at the end.

Instead of trying to fool the public perhaps the parties, recognizing the values the electorate holds dear, will begin that process.
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