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DivxGuy 11-10-04 01:18 PM

Hostage slaughterhouses found
 
U.S. and Iraqi forces moving to secure the rebel-controlled city of Falluja have taken possession buildings apparently used for the murder of hostages. Meanwhile, The Globe and Mail reports that U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan insists that negotiations remain the only workable option with regards to the kidnappings and beheadings:

The Secretary-General warned Washington and Baghdad that they should make greater efforts "to win the hearts and minds" of insurgents in Fallujah and other parts of the Sunni triangle.

That way, he said, "at the end of the process, at the end of the elections, all Iraqis feel they have been involved."
The following appears courtesy of MSNBC. Mods, I apologize if this has already been posted.
=============
‘Hostage slaughterhouses’ found in Fallujah
Iraqi general says troops found CDs and records of captives
BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC News Services
Updated: 11:41 a.m. ET Nov. 10, 2004

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - Iraqi troops have found “hostage slaughterhouses” in Fallujah where foreign captives were held and killed, the commander of Iraqi forces in the city said Wednesday.

Troops found CDs and records of people taken captive in houses in the northern part of Fallujah, Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan told reporters.

The most notorious abductions in Iraq have been by the al-Qaida-linked group led by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Al-Zarqaqi was believed to have been in Fallujah, but commanders now say he likely fled the city before the huge offensive launched this week by U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Mohan did not say whether remains of captives were found and did not comment on whether the houses were believed linked to al-Zarqawi or any of several other militant groups that have claimed kidnappings.

Latest news on the Fallujah battle

“We have found hostage slaughterhouses in Fallujah that were used by these people and the black clothing that they used to wear to identify themselves, hundreds of CDs and whole records with names of hostages,” the general said at a military camp near Fallujah.

Mohan was unsure if the hostage records included the names of any of the at least nine foreigners still in the hands of kidnappers — most notably, British aid worker Margaret Hassan, French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot and two Americans.

“I did not look closely” at the documents, he said.

More than 170 foreigners have been kidnapped this year, and more than 30 of them have been killed by their captors.

Al-Zarqawi’s followers have beheaded three Americans, two Britons, a Japanese and a South Korean, usually releasing grisly videos showing the decapitations.

Many others have been freed in exchange for money.

Philippine Foreign Ministry officials said on Tuesday that kidnappers were demanding ransoms totaling about $20 million for an American and a Filipino abducted last week in Baghdad.

They said the kidnappers of Robert Tarongoy, a 31-year-old accountant, had contacted his employer, Saudi Arabian Trading and Construction Company (SATCO), and demanded money in exchange for the freedom of the hostages.

Tarongoy, an unidentified American, a Nepali and three Iraqis were taken at gunpoint on Nov. 1 from their offices in Baghdad. The Iraqis and the Nepali have been released.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

al_bundy 11-10-04 01:40 PM

does anyone really care what kofi anann says?

bhk 11-10-04 01:46 PM

Koffi Anan does.

Th0r S1mpson 11-10-04 01:49 PM


they should make greater efforts "to win the hearts and minds" of insurgents in Fallujah and other parts of the Sunni triangle.
I agree with this. Did he really suggest that we should do so by giving in to kidnappers' demands? :confused:

Pharoh 11-10-04 01:55 PM


Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I agree with this. Did he really suggest that we should do so by giving in to kidnappers' demands? :confused:

But there is no way to win the "hearts and minds" of murderous terrorist thugs. The only way to come close would precisely be giving into their demands and leaving Iraq.

I prefer their eradication.

DaveNinja 11-10-04 01:55 PM

If we keep paying the kidnappers off they'll eventually have too much money and wont need to kidnap anymore. the perfect plan!

Myster X 11-10-04 01:58 PM


Originally posted by DaveNinja
If we keep paying the kidnappers off they'll eventually have too much money and wont need to kidnap anymore. the perfect plan!
yes! and then they go out in the black market and buy a nuke... hooray!!!!!!!!!!! everyone wins!

General Zod 11-10-04 02:00 PM

Since they are killing citizens there anyhow.. MOAB.

(oh, pull out our forces first ;) )

Th0r S1mpson 11-10-04 02:23 PM

If I had to guess, I would say that this insurgency will likely be put to rest by insurgents, not U.S. forces.

Mordred 11-10-04 04:19 PM


Originally posted by Pharoh
But there is no way to win the "hearts and minds" of murderous terrorist thugs. The only way to come close would precisely be giving into their demands and leaving Iraq.

I prefer their eradication.

Woah! I agree with Pharoh for once! I think I need to go lie down. :)

Th0r S1mpson 11-10-04 04:28 PM

"Winning their hearts and minds" could also include convincing them that what they're doing is pretty pointless, in my opinion.

Ranger 11-10-04 04:49 PM

Re: Hostage slaughterhouses found
 

Originally posted by DivxGuy
U.S. and Iraqi forces moving to secure the rebel-controlled city of Falluja have taken possession buildings apparently used for the murder of hostages. Meanwhile, The Globe and Mail reports that U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan insists that negotiations remain the only workable option with regards to the kidnappings and beheadings:

Yeah, I heard Annan say that last week. I think he's afraid that attacking Falluja would lead to more violence and strengthen the insurgents/terrorists' cause. But coalitions and Iraqi leaders sharply dismissed the suggestion, saying that they had tried their best to negotiate (hey, reasoning with murderous thugs isn't easy) and that failed, and that Annan better come up with a better idea or shut the hell up.

talemyn 11-10-04 05:10 PM

Re: Re: Hostage slaughterhouses found
 

Originally posted by Ranger
Yeah, I heard Annan say that last week. I think he's afraid that attacking Falluja would lead to more violence and strengthen the insurgents/terrorists' cause. But coalitions and Iraqi leaders sharply dismissed the suggestion, saying that they had tried their best to negotiate (hey, reasoning with murderous thugs isn't easy) and that failed, and that Annan better come up with a better idea or shut the hell up.
Recently, when ever I ever that Annan say something, I picture the scene in Animal House where Kevin Bacon is standing in the middle of the crazed crowd at the parade shouting "Remain calm. All is well!" :lol:

bfrank 11-10-04 05:21 PM


Originally posted by Pharoh
But there is no way to win the "hearts and minds" of murderous terrorist thugs. The only way to come close would precisely be giving into their demands and leaving Iraq.

I prefer their eradication.



What actually causes a person to become "murderous terrorist thug"? I see a connection in you suggested "solution" and the creating of these so called "thugs".

Th0r S1mpson 11-10-04 05:29 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
What actually causes a person to become "murderous terrorist thug"?
Mommy and daddy not hugging them when they needed emotional support*.
Spoiler:
<font size=1>*Because mommy and daddy's brains are splattered all over their favorite toy SCUD launcher.</font>


:(

Pharoh 11-10-04 05:30 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
What actually causes a person to become "murderous terrorist thug"? I see a connection in you suggested "solution" and the creating of these so called "thugs".
I don't. I believe that the history of our involvement in the Middle East, and the War on Terrorism, confirms that.

Ranger 11-10-04 05:33 PM

The chicken and egg debate continues...

bhk 11-10-04 05:34 PM


What actually causes a person to become "murderous terrorist thug"?
A lust for power and religious fervor to a religion that calls for the persecution of non-believers.
What exactly caused the the terrorist thug to kill that filmmaker in the Netherlands?

Pharoh 11-10-04 05:35 PM


Originally posted by Ranger
The chicken and egg debate continues...

There is only one way it can end. I hope we get to that point to find out.

bfrank 11-10-04 05:43 PM


Originally posted by Pharoh
There is only one way it can end. I hope we get to that point to find out.
see- "Israel"

When society fails, those that it failed have no need to live by its rules.

How can we be so dismissive to our part in creating this mess?

Pharoh 11-10-04 05:50 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
see- "Israel"

When society fails, those that it failed have no need to live by its rules.

How can we be so dismissive to our part in creating this mess?


Israel has never gotten to that point. Regardless, I am not so certain that Israel is the example you want to use, especially considering what the true ultimate aim of those that kill innocent Israelis is.


How do you explain all of the acts of terror committed by islamists throughout the globe over the past sixty years, many before "our part in creating the mess" even began?

bfrank 11-10-04 05:58 PM

Simple-

how many "islamists" have been killed by the "west"?

how many "westerners" have been killed by "islamists"?

Pharoh 11-10-04 06:02 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
Simple-

how many "islamists" have been killed by the "west"?

how many "westerners" have been killed by "islamists"?


I don't know, you tell me. And while you're at it, could you please include how many Muslims have been killed by islamists, and how many Muslims have been killed by fellow Muslims?

Thanks.

Ranger 11-10-04 06:08 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
Simple-

how many "islamists" have been killed by the "west"?

how many "westerners" have been killed by "islamists"?

Westerns are less likely to be killed by them because more Islamists would be dead already.

There was this interesting cartoon in my paper a couple of years back. It showed a soldier with a big knife that just cut down a big tree labeled al Qaeda, in the next cartoon, five little trees labeled al Qaeda showed up. I think the effective solution is to keep cutting the trees down.

Wars are won by those with the will to win.

bfrank 11-10-04 06:10 PM

look we will never agree.

I am just trying to understand "why". I will never agree that someone is willing to die (to kill me) because they "hate freedom".

Pharoh 11-10-04 06:16 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
look we will never agree.

I am trying to understand why. I wil never agree that someone is willing to die to kill me because they "hate freedom".


And where once in all of my time here on this forum have I ever said that?

Seriously, don't patronize my position, or mischaracterise it.

And I will never try to understand a greedy lust for power and domination, acted out through acts of violence against innocents and fueled by the manipulation of a powerless mass marginalised by their own leaders, by their own societies.

dork 11-10-04 06:16 PM


Originally posted by Ranger

There was this interesting cartoon in my paper a couple of years back. It showed a soldier with a big knife that just cut down a big tree labeled al Qaeda, in the next cartoon, five little trees labeled al Qaeda showed up. I think the effective solution is to keep cutting the trees down.

You seem to agree with the premise of the cartoon but still think that's the best solution? Is it the concept of exponential growth that you disagree with? :hscratch:

Or have I misunderstood yet again?

Ranger 11-10-04 06:34 PM


Originally posted by dork
You seem to agree with the premise of the cartoon but still think that's the best solution? Is it the concept of exponential growth that you disagree with? :hscratch:

Or have I misunderstood yet again?

Well, as I said before the cartoon (which was on my school paper) was two years old, I am pretty sure it was referring to the invasion of Afghanistan. I think weakening al Qaeda there has not been easy, but it has been fairly successful. The cartoon could have been referring to actions in Iraq, but I think time will tell whatever al Qaeda has been weakened there.

I don't disagree with the exponential growth concept, but I am confident their cause will die down eventually. One side will have to give up, and it isn't going to be us.

dork 11-10-04 06:39 PM

Next question: Who cuts down trees with a knife? :confused:

Pharoh 11-10-04 06:41 PM


Originally posted by dork
Next question: Who cuts down trees with a knife? :confused:

Paul Bunyan, USMC.

bfrank 11-10-04 07:47 PM


Originally posted by Pharoh
And where once in all of my time here on this forum have I ever said that?

Seriously, don't patronize my position, or mischaracterise it.

And I will never try to understand a greedy lust for power and domination, acted out through acts of violence against innocents and fueled by the manipulation of a powerless mass marginalised by their own leaders, by their own societies.

Wow - sorry!

I did not mean it in that way. I guess a smile would have helped. I know how you feel and see the logic.

I was only trying to state my position.

You should know I have huge respect for you on this forum. The main reason I discuss issues with you is because of you are willing to hear both sides and then make a logical explaination of the opposing view.

Again sorry :D

Pharoh 11-10-04 08:06 PM


Originally posted by bfrank
Wow - sorry!

I did not mean it in that way. I guess a smile would have helped. I know how you feel and see the logic.

I was only trying to state my position.

You should know I have huge respect for you on this forum. The main reason I discuss issues with you is because of you are willing to hear both sides and then make a logical explaination of the opposing view.

Again sorry :D


And my apologies. End of workday frustration. My bad.


:)

Annoyumous 11-10-04 08:33 PM


Originally posted by dork
You seem to agree with the premise of the cartoon but still think that's the best solution? Is it the concept of exponential growth that you disagree with? :hscratch:

Or have I misunderstood yet again?

Perhaps he believes in the concept of reality over theory. It's like the old story of the rabbit and hound. The rabbit has a head start of x distance, but the hound runs twice as fast. Given the mathematical notion of infinity, I could advance the argument that the hound can never catch up with the rabbit since whatever distance the hound covers over a given period of time - the rabbit has advanced half that distance ahead - and so on and so on and so on infinitesimally. Reality gives us a different result.

DVD Polizei 11-10-04 08:45 PM

I just opened a fresh can of Group Hugs. Let's use them before they go bad.

talemyn 11-10-04 09:20 PM


Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I just opened a fresh can of Group Hugs. Let's use them before they go bad.
http://www.mindspring.com/~boycekb/i...s/GroupHug.gif

Th0r S1mpson 11-11-04 01:33 AM

Has anyone heard about these slaughterhouses that were found? Not to distract from the loving group hugs and all... ;)

Mopower 11-11-04 03:06 AM

Man, this assault is awesome. Great move...hope they wipe them out. All of them.


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