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Iraqi PM's Relatives: Hostage

Old 11-10-04, 07:02 AM
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Iraqi PM's Relatives: Hostage

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6449794/

BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Islamic militant group said in an Internet statement it abducted three relatives of Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and threatened to kill them in 48 hours if the state did not halt a raid on Fallujah and free prisoners.

"If the agent government does not meet our demands within 48 hours we will behead (the hostages)," Ansar al-Jihad Group said in a statement dated Wednesday and carried on a Web site used by Islamists.

A spokesman for the Iraqi interim government confirmed that three relatives of Allawi were kidnapped by gunmen.

A first cousin of the prime minister, the cousin’s wife and another family member were seized from their home in Baghdad on Tuesday morning, spokesman Georges Sada said.

He gave no further details on the circumstances of their abduction, but a police source said there had been a short gun battle at the home in a southwestern district of the capital before the people were seized.

Sada said no demands had so far been made by the kidnappers.

“This is a close cousin — Allawi’s father and his father are brothers,” Sada told Reuters.

Hundreds of Iraqis have been kidnapped by criminal gangs in a wave of abductions in recent months, with more wealthy individuals such as doctors and businessmen most regularly targeted. Most are released after the payment of ransom.

Over the same period, scores of foreigners have been seized, with many of them handed over to Islamic militant groups who have threatened to kill them if demands are not met. More than 35 foreign hostages have been killed, several by beheading.

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Old 11-10-04, 07:40 AM
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This isn't a joke. I'm serious.
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Old 11-10-04, 07:53 AM
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I think the US and the Iraqi government should behead all prisoners taken in Fallujah until the relatives are released.
(or "take no prisoners" in the 1st place)
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Old 11-10-04, 07:57 AM
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this is definitely a bad situation.....


beheading the other people will do nothing.... which is retarded already.......

difficult situation...... i believe in the tracer program..... i say put a chip in a couple of cia agents and let them loose...... they get caught we trace them back to the killers and wipe the floor of them
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Old 11-10-04, 08:26 AM
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What's amazing is that kidnapping is on the rise all over the world. In Brazil, their youngest soccer star had his mother kidnapped for ransom. Look at Uggy Urbina of the Detroit Tigers. He had to leave the team because his mom was kidnapped in South America as well. Freaky.
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Old 11-10-04, 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by raven56706
beheading the other people will do nothing.... which is retarded already.......
Sure it will, and no it's not.

Once you behead the prisoners the kidnappers want freed, they lose their power. Sure, in this particular case, Allawi's relatives may still be killed but kidnappings wont be used in the future to force the release of prisoners. Sure, kidnappings will still occur simply in attempts to end the occupation, but that's going to happen anyway.

So, kill 'em.

no prisoners = no kidnappings to force their release

As for your tracer idea, I've thought of that too, and agree with you there. If it's not already being used, I can't fathom why not.

Last edited by Mutley Hyde; 11-10-04 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 11-10-04, 09:22 AM
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Mutley........some of the kidnappings have been for releasing prisoners but most have been for troops to leave the country...


It would be a public disaster if we beheaded the prisoners....
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Old 11-10-04, 09:23 AM
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So, kill 'em.
So you admit that killing the prisoners will not stop the kidnappings, but you want to do it anyway. I guess you're not much different than the terrorists.
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Old 11-10-04, 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Jaymole
So you admit that killing the prisoners will not stop the kidnappings, but you want to do it anyway. I guess you're not much different than the terrorists.
What? Did you guys even read my post? The kidnappings to force the release of prisoners will cease if there are no more prisoners.

The general kidnappings to end the occupation are another matter. I am in no way saying that all kidnappings will cease if we take no prisoners. How you guys took that from my post is way beyond me.

And, in reality, this line of reasoning is a mere exercise on my part; I don't really believe we should implement an absolute policy of taking no prisoners - however, I do believe we should be resolute in not allowing these kidnappings to affect the incarceration of said prisoners.

What would you do, release them? Stop the action in Fallujah? Pull out of Iraq entirely? Honest question.

Last edited by Mutley Hyde; 11-10-04 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 11-10-04, 11:42 AM
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The kidnappings to force the release of prisoners will cease if there are no more prisoners.
But kidnappings won't be curtailed one iota if there were no prisoners. They would just make other demands instead, until we are completely out of Iraq & the present government falls. There is no cause & effect between prisoners & kidnappings.

In any case, I would not give in to the kidnappers. This is just one of those horrible & tragic consequences of getting involved in this war.
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Old 11-10-04, 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by raven56706
this is definitely a bad situation.....


beheading the other people will do nothing.... which is retarded already.......

difficult situation...... i believe in the tracer program..... i say put a chip in a couple of cia agents and let them loose...... they get caught we trace them back to the killers and wipe the floor of them
Yeah, I agree. Saying kill the prisoners now might sound like a simple solution, but it's a lot more complicated than that. The coalition forces probably are holding a wide variety of prisoners including children and innocent Iraqis.

Nevertheless, the kidnappers need to be found and eliminated.
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Old 11-10-04, 12:19 PM
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dead or alive.........

i just dont understand the plus and minus thing with the iraqi people.... let us just rid the bad people and then we will leave....they keep on predicting future(we will stay there for long periods of time) and they will get nothing...


oh killing innocent people will not do the job......
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Old 11-10-04, 01:03 PM
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Killing the prisoners, effectively using them as our own hostages, MAY very well have the desired effect - nullifying kidnapping as a useful tool for demanding release.

But there's a reason why we don't do that, and it has something to do with the fact that we are America and something to do with the fact that we think that sort of thing is wrong. I mean... that's pretty much what we're trying to eliminate here to begin with. Insurgents doing these activities is very different from our nation deciding to do it as a matter of policy.

In the end... freedom will reign over this garbage. It's just hard to know how far out that is, and it could be a long, long time. Odds are, it will take a movement within the Iraqi people themselves to put an end to this sort of thing, when it is realized that a free Iraq is better than a war-torn one, and that people can actually coexist with different ideologies.

In the meantime, we obviously must refuse to negotiate and use whatever means we have to track these people down and end them. <i>The kidnappers</i> should be made examples of, not the ones they are trying to free, whatever their guilt. That's another matter to be dealt with accordingly.
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Old 11-10-04, 01:31 PM
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The thing that bugs me is that this is likely just a pre-cursor of things to come. Everyone expects the next terrorist attack to be something big. But what if it starts appearing is smaller ways?

Right now, all of the beheadings have occurred on Iraqi soil. Our distance from not only the land, but the Iraqis in general, makes it easy to take an practical stance. We say it is just part of war and that Allawi should just accept and move on.

But what if its starts happening on our soil? Its no secret that there are still numerous cells of al Qaidi operatives still hidden within our midst. And terror rarely hits as strong as when it hits home.

What if its Jenna Bush or some senator's kid that's next?

Bush has never struck me as someone strong enough to make any form of personal sacrifice. He is more than willing to sacrifice the children of others, but if I were a betting man, I'd say he'd bend as quickly a dandelion in a hail storm.

Do I have the answers? No, but then that's really the problem with a war on terror...even more so than guerilla warfare, there are no rules. Everything's open game, making it nearly impossible to have an effective strategy.

Pragmatism is only an effective defense when you have detachment. Its easy being an armchair quarterback when its not you taking the sacks.

Last edited by TheAllPurposeNothing; 11-10-04 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 11-10-04, 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheAllPurposeNothing
Everything's open game, making it nearly impossible to have an effective strategy.

Pragmatism is only an effective defense when you have detachment. Its easy being an armchair quarterback when its not you taking the sacks.
So your suggestion is?
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Old 11-10-04, 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Thor Simpson
So your suggestion is?
Like I said, I don't have an answer. But then again, I don't think there is an effective strategy to dealing with this.

If you kill blindly in retaliation, then you just strengthen their base. If you give in, you portray yourself as weak, and easily susceptible to such tactics.

That's why Iraq is a quagmire...probably more so than Vietnam was...and why going in was a mistake. And likely why elections won't be the saving grace the president hopes they will be.

But, from a Machiavellian standpoint, perhaps thats the idea. Leave the country in a state of civil war so that it internally weakens itself so much that to the catalyst go the spoils.
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Old 11-10-04, 06:47 PM
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TheAllPurposeNothing,

There is an effective strategy, and its been historically proven, but the US will not go down that path due to criticism from the world's human rights groups. And simply put, this is why hostage taking will continue to increase.

The military's latest infiltration of Fallujah is going to be another failure, and this time it's going to be pretty serious because physical damage to Fallujah is even greater--which can actually be an asset if you're a resistance fighter. This was not a surprise attack, and most hardcore fighters have already gone.

Of course, the media have just began to report this. The plan is to fill the vacuum left with Iraqi police and soldiers, thereby keeping Fallujah Insurgent free. However, I don't think this is going to work without a very strong US support base there.

What we are seeing, is a stop-gap preceding an election, in order to push back resistance forces--not to annihilate them. Big mistake. We should have gone in there by total surprise, with virtually the entire attack done by helicopter and special forces entering the city via helicopter.

An even better way to do this, was to surround the city, literally, and slowly moving in, thereby creating a "squeeze", and letting no one out of the city until checked for weapons and explosives by military personnel. But, you're talking about a force of 50,000 to do this.

This is seriously a bad move, because we once knew where most of the hostages were being kept and killed: somewhere in Fallujah. We also knew where most of the resistance fighters were: Fallujah.

Now, we have stirred up the hornet's nest, the hornets have all gone somewhere else, and we are left with an empty nest, having ZERO intel, when before we at least knew where the resistance was coming from.
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Old 11-11-04, 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by DVD Polizei
The military's latest infiltration of Fallujah is going to be another failure, and this time it's going to be pretty serious because physical damage to Fallujah is even greater--which can actually be an asset if you're a resistance fighter. This was not a surprise attack, and most hardcore fighters have already gone.

...

What we are seeing, is a stop-gap preceding an election, in order to push back resistance forces--not to annihilate them. Big mistake. We should have gone in there by total surprise, with virtually the entire attack done by helicopter and special forces entering the city via helicopter.

...

This is seriously a bad move, because we once knew where most of the hostages were being kept and killed: somewhere in Fallujah. We also knew where most of the resistance fighters were: Fallujah.

Now, we have stirred up the hornet's nest, the hornets have all gone somewhere else, and we are left with an empty nest, having ZERO intel, when before we at least knew where the resistance was coming from.
Man, I hate agreeing with you on this. I told my wife 3 months ago that you weren't going to see anything happen in Falluja until after the election because if things didn't go well it would negatively impact Bush, and I didn't think he was about to let that happen. I hate being right.

I'm not sure what the right answer is in an assault on a city like Falluja. I assume that there were civilians in the city and I don't want to see them die. The only way to stop that from happening is to let everybody know what you're going to do, thus greatly diminishing the effect you'll have on the actual insurgents. I'm beginning to wonder whether our intent in Iraq now isn't to capture/kill the insurgents but rather just to remove their base of operations... which would decrease the kidnappings/beheadings.

As for the hornets nets, it's stirred up and stinging people:
And while U.S.-led troops fought for the upper hand in Falluja, insurgents in the northern city of Mosul set police stations ablaze, stole weapons and brazenly roamed the streets.

Residents said Iraq's third largest city seemed to slide out of control as grenade blasts and gunfire rang through empty streets and smoke billowed from two burning police stations.

A cameraman for Reuters filmed gunmen raiding weapons and flak jackets from a police station before setting it on fire.

"It's crazy, really, really crazy," said Abdallah Fathi, a resident who witnessed one police station attack.

The U.S. military issued a statement admitting that local security forces had been overrun in several areas and said local authorities were doing what they could to restore order.

A photographer working for Reuters was shot in the leg and taken to hospital. Doctors said one civilian had been killed and at least 25 wounded in the past two days of fighting.

Violence has worsened in Mosul, a strongly nationalist city of three million people, over the past year, but residents said the chaos of the past two days had broken new ground.

Apparently responding to the Falluja offensive, insurgents have staged attacks this week in the Sunni towns and cities of Samarra, Baiji, Baquba, Tikrit, Ramadi and parts of Baghdad.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mymod/hdln/rt.../ts_nm/iraq_dc

This is not what I like to see:
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Old 11-11-04, 07:58 PM
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If this is an indication of how things are run, the elections in January are going to be a disaster. This is like a sick and twisted Keystone Cops video, where the military chase the terrorists throughout the country, never apprehending them, and made to look like idiots.
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