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Taxation without representation

Old 11-08-04, 03:41 PM
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Taxation without representation

I saw someone complaining foreigners who contribute into Social Security can't vote and cannot collect benefits. Well, I posted that latter was not true.

What about CITIZENS.???!?!??!! I know of at least one case where many get taxed but have no voting say.

Those who work in NY but don't live there get the royal shaft. Except for the fact that their home state gives them partial credit for taxes paid to NY (shafting their own state budgets), you have to pay the higher tax to NY but don't get a vote in any elections or have any say in the matter.

Any others out there?
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Old 11-08-04, 03:45 PM
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felons. those under 18. noncitizens (green card holders). people in d.c. (but they gave up their right to representation when they reelected marion berry )
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Old 11-08-04, 03:46 PM
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we call it the commuter tax

theory is that NY spends a lot of money to provide a good working environment and people should pay for it
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Old 11-08-04, 03:47 PM
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Basically, that is true across most state lines. But you have a choice. You could find a job in your home state, or a home in your work state. So you are a willing party to this mess because you have the means to solve it and don't.
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Old 11-08-04, 04:10 PM
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How about half-a-million+ residents of DC.
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Old 11-08-04, 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by OldDude
Basically, that is true across most state lines. But you have a choice. You could find a job in your home state, or a home in your work state. So you are a willing party to this mess because you have the means to solve it and don't.
so that excludes d.c. from my list
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Old 11-08-04, 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by OldDude
Basically, that is true across most state lines. But you have a choice. You could find a job in your home state, or a home in your work state. So you are a willing party to this mess because you have the means to solve it and don't.

I don't think this is a good argument, particularly in my example. Just because someone has the means to overcome a 'disadvantage' (created by government) doesn't mean that the disadvantage should continue to apply.
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Old 11-08-04, 04:27 PM
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the OP is from NJ and works in NYC. A lot of people come in to work from NJ, Connecticut and the NYC suburbs in NY state. All these people require police protection, sanitation to clean up the trash they throw on the ground, maintain the bridges and roads, and a ton of other services. This isn't a few people that we are talking about, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million a day.
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Old 11-08-04, 08:50 PM
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Citizens of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. They get taxed federally, can be drafted, and have no say-so in the Presidential Election or any legislators representing them in the House. To get around this taxation w/o representation, they give them a comisionado resident who lives in D.C. and gets to sit in session just for sake of sitting there.
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Old 11-08-04, 09:06 PM
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i thought people from PR always voted no on statehood?
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Old 11-08-04, 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
we call it the commuter tax

theory is that NY spends a lot of money to provide a good working environment and people should pay for it
actually the theory is commuters use certain services and yes those should be paid for. but when ny complains about schools and more, they need to look to themselves.. I would have no problem paying a small tax, but to have to pay 7+% to NY and my state gets nothing, that is not right.
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Old 11-08-04, 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by DeltaSigChi4
Citizens of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. They get taxed federally, can be drafted, and have no say-so in the Presidential Election or any legislators representing them in the House. To get around this taxation w/o representation, they give them a comisionado resident who lives in D.C. and gets to sit in session just for sake of sitting there.
I would check that.. it has been looked at, but they pay to the commonwealth . They dont pay us income tax:


Here is the last study I could find (if they changed things):
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/gg96127.pdf
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Old 11-08-04, 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
i thought people from PR always voted no on statehood?
IIRC each time it gets closer... it wouldn't surprise me if they were the next state.
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Old 11-08-04, 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
the OP is from NJ and works in NYC. A lot of people come in to work from NJ, Connecticut and the NYC suburbs in NY state. All these people require police protection, sanitation to clean up the trash they throw on the ground, maintain the bridges and roads, and a ton of other services. This isn't a few people that we are talking about, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million a day.
And if you look at the cost of those services (and we dont throw stuff on the ground..maybe the locals do) :

trash collection is cheap.. even when I paid for my house separately in CA it was 10 bucks a month for a whole family. Bridges and tunnels? You have to be kidding! For those using them, they get hit with HUGE tolls as it is already. They PAY for that separately. As for police, that is a service you would have to provide anyway or forget tourism and the like. Businesses and residents should be paying for it like they do elsewhere. Other services, one of the reasons mayor Bloomberg wanted to slam us even harder was the schools. NYC property taxes are ridiculously low compared to the 'burbs. Tax the people who use the schools. And the tax we pay doesn't go to NYC. It goes to the state. We shouldn't have to pay for other areas of the state. The only other service 'commuters' might use is emergency medical, which they pay for anyway. When commuters buy stuff (like lunches etc) they leave $$ in the city anyway.

Kill the NY tax and go back to the small commuter tax (it was about 1% or less). THAT is fairer. Let the city get all of it. If that happened, my state would have a surplus. Right now NJ and CT are subsidizing NY.

The worst part is that these taxes can get increased and you get no say. Wonder if someone challenged them in court if they would stand...
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Old 11-08-04, 09:19 PM
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Well, then the other states have to vote to accept them. That might not be a "done deal."
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Old 11-08-04, 09:38 PM
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How about anyone who stays in an out-of-state hotel? Hotel taxes are generally 15-30%, and they certainly don't benefit your home town.
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Old 11-08-04, 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by matchpenalty
And if you look at the cost of those services (and we dont throw stuff on the ground..maybe the locals do) :

trash collection is cheap.. even when I paid for my house separately in CA it was 10 bucks a month for a whole family. Bridges and tunnels? You have to be kidding! For those using them, they get hit with HUGE tolls as it is already. They PAY for that separately. As for police, that is a service you would have to provide anyway or forget tourism and the like. Businesses and residents should be paying for it like they do elsewhere. Other services, one of the reasons mayor Bloomberg wanted to slam us even harder was the schools. NYC property taxes are ridiculously low compared to the 'burbs. Tax the people who use the schools. And the tax we pay doesn't go to NYC. It goes to the state. We shouldn't have to pay for other areas of the state. The only other service 'commuters' might use is emergency medical, which they pay for anyway. When commuters buy stuff (like lunches etc) they leave $$ in the city anyway.

Kill the NY tax and go back to the small commuter tax (it was about 1% or less). THAT is fairer. Let the city get all of it. If that happened, my state would have a surplus. Right now NJ and CT are subsidizing NY.

The worst part is that these taxes can get increased and you get no say. Wonder if someone challenged them in court if they would stand...
they will stand up. athletes pay a ton of state taxes to a lot of states.

this is why i would never live in NJ and work in NYC. My wife just started a job that will give her enough experience to work in NJ a few years from now since we will probably move there.
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Old 11-08-04, 10:56 PM
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I live in a suburb of Cleveland and work downtown. Therefore, I have to pay taxes both in my suburb (where I can vote) and in Cleveland (where I cannot.) I pay just as much tax as anyone who lives in Cleveland, but I spend very little time there. Yet they can vote, and I can't.

- David Stein
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Old 11-08-04, 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by nemein
IIRC each time it gets closer... it wouldn't surprise me if they were the next state.
That would be kind of cool . . . we haven't had a new state in a while . . .
Originally posted by OldDude
Well, then the other states have to vote to accept them. That might not be a "done deal."
I'd welcome them in . . .
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Old 11-09-04, 01:19 AM
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you're not truly without representation
you can still write and lobby the representatives in that area
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Old 11-09-04, 04:36 AM
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Sorry for the OT, but does anyone think that this applies to them. Do you actually feel that your best interests are represented by you congressman?


I for one do not.
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Old 11-09-04, 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by talemyn
I'd welcome them in . . .
I haven't really thought about it much but I can't really think of anything off hand that would likely keep them out. Esp considering they are already US citizens and both parties are courting the hispanic vote now more than ever.
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Old 11-09-04, 08:15 AM
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One issue that might come up is whether their being a state would force us to be officially bilingual, like Canada, or whether English would be the 'official' language even though a lot of assistance is offered to speakers of other languages. English is a requirement of citizenship for naturalized citizens, but they are citizens by birth, and mostly speak Spanish. As a Territory, no one has made an issue of it.

I don't know how it would go, but I see it as one of the issues that would come up.
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Old 11-09-04, 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by DeltaSigChi4
Citizens of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. They get taxed federally, can be drafted, and have no say-so in the Presidential Election or any legislators representing them in the House. To get around this taxation w/o representation, they give them a comisionado resident who lives in D.C. and gets to sit in session just for sake of sitting there.

I don't believe the citizens of Puerto Rico pay federal taxes. Why do you think they keep voting down applying for statehood? They have no reason to apply because they have the best of both worlds: US citizenship while avoiding federal taxes.
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