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Bush supporters - answer one question...

Old 11-05-04, 10:10 AM
  #51  
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Originally posted by classicman2
I've heard the system can't continue the way it is for over 40 years.

The system is healthier than it has been in decades.

Even if there are no fixes - the system is projected to remain solvent for another 40-45 years.
The system already sucks. I've been wondering whether I'd rather just die than live at the subsistence level SS provides.

Why not improve it instead of just creating wards of the welfare state whose biggest concern becomes "who will pay for my medicine?" Let them accumulate some of their own money and they can tell the politicians to shove it, they'll pay for their own.
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Old 11-05-04, 10:21 AM
  #52  
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You're much more in danger of creating 'wards of the state' with Bush's privitization scheme. They lose all their money in their investments, and when money is needed, they come running to the federal government.
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Old 11-05-04, 10:29 AM
  #53  
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Originally posted by classicman2
You're much more in danger of creating 'wards of the state' with Bush's privitization scheme. They lose all their money in their investments, and when money is needed, they come running to the federal government.
That's where the army of religious compassion comes in.

I can see why Bush wouldn't care about that since this wouldn't happen for at least 30-40 years, so why worry when you can just let another administration down the road handle that mess? Most people don't look over the horizon, so it's not hard to understand why they don't have a problem with this. Going broke on your choice of investment in SS (and realizing that that's it, the government let you slit your own wrists) would require a vast change in the way people think about government and its responsibility to them. Would people make that leap, or just revolt?
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Old 11-05-04, 10:30 AM
  #54  
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Originally posted by classicman2
You're much more in danger of creating 'wards of the state' with Bush's privitization scheme. They lose all their money in their investments, and when money is needed, they come running to the federal government.
I think a system of very conservative investments can be set up. Even T-bills are a better investment than SS.

I can also see how the government could set up a system where a bit (and just a bit!) of the investment went into an insurance policy (preferably private insurance) in case their investments tanked. Just like long-term care insurance.

But it's all up for discussion. The first thing to do is start talking about it instead of rejecting it offhand.
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Old 11-05-04, 10:34 AM
  #55  
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Originally posted by X
I think very a system of very conservative investments can be set up. Even T-bills are a better investment than SS.

I can also see how the government could set up a system where a bit (and just a bit!) of the investment went into an insurance policy (preferably private insurance) in case their investments tanked. Just like long-term care insurance.

But it's all up for discussion. The first thing to do is start talking about it instead of rejecting it offhand.
By privatizing SS, or major parts of it, aren't you just turning the private companies who handle the money into just an extended beurocracy of the Federal Government? I mean the amounts of money we're talking about here are mindblowing.
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Old 11-05-04, 11:24 AM
  #56  
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Originally posted by reservoirdog
Public schools are fat. Have you seen the kids that come out of these things? They're borderline braindead. Why are we wasting our tax dollars on this?
You're completely missing the point of the public school system.

Our schools are ineffective as educational systems, true. Not wholly ineffective - most people know how to read and write, at least - but far from optimal or internationally competitive.

But schools also keep kids between the ages of 6 and 18 occupied between 9am and 5pm so that parents can go to work. Think of it as adolescent, society-sponsored babysitting. It's very efficient at this. The alternatives:
<UL><LI>A society with 45% of able-bodied adults tasked with day care - hugely increasing poverty and hugely reducing the work force and GDP.
<LI>A society where parents have to cover commercial day-care costs, which, as any parent will tell you, is financially back-breaking. This is a strong financial discouragement to having kids, and we'll have to deal with declining population levels.
<LI>A society where kids are just, well, not carefully minded through their growing years. As they say, idle hands are the devil's work. Results include hugely increasing crime rates and an <i>even dumber</i> population than we have now.</UL>Also, consider that kids might not learn anything during school hours, but they do develop the attention span to and tolerance sit through a 9 to 5 job five days a week.

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Old 11-05-04, 12:19 PM
  #57  
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
Our schools are ineffective as educational systems, true.
That's hogwash*. Many of our finest minds are the product of the public school systems. Their success rate isn't 100%, and there's certainly room for improvement, but there's not a systemic flaw in the concept of public schooling.

*The term "Hogwash" is TM and 2004 by classicman2. Used without permission. All rights reserved.

Last edited by JasonF; 11-05-04 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 11-05-04, 12:22 PM
  #58  
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That's hogwash. Many of our finest minds are the product of the public school systems. Their success rate isn't 100%, and there's certainly room for improvement, but there's not a systemic flaw in the concept of public schooling.
I agree. If parents get after their kids they will perform and learn, if the parents don't care, then the kids don't learn.
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Old 11-05-04, 01:02 PM
  #59  
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Originally posted by JasonF
Many of our finest minds are the product of the public school systems.
I attribute that more to gifted and driven kids. If the child has a bright and inquisitive mind, all you have to do is to give him/her a book (or several, or many.)
Originally posted by JasonF
Their success rate isn't 100%, and there's certainly room for improvement, but there's not a systemic flaw in the concept of public schooling.
I agree - there's no flaw in public schooling. It seems to have worked fine 30-40 years ago.

Also, many countries have public school systems that turn out students who, on average, are very well-educated. Consider that in Europe, sitting in a cafe and discussing politics, world events, and the arts for hours is not an activity limited to pointy-headed intellectuals, but is a pursuit of the average person. OTOH, in America, we discuss sports, TV, and pro wrestling.

So it's not a flaw with the public school concept. Actually, I don't even believe that our implementation is flawed (though it's also not adept.) I believe that the problem is with too few parents pushing their kids to do well, and demanding results.

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Old 11-05-04, 01:26 PM
  #60  
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Warning: I'm the only one on the forum who is permitted to use the word - hogwash!

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Old 11-05-04, 01:30 PM
  #61  
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I feel almost helpless when discussing the public school system.

I know something is wrong.

I can't pinpoint exactly what that something is. (I have a couple of ideas of what may be the cause(s).)

And, I don't know how to fix it.
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Old 11-05-04, 01:33 PM
  #62  
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Originally posted by sfsdfd

Consider that in Europe, sitting in a cafe and discussing politics, world events, and the arts for hours is not an activity limited to pointy-headed intellectuals, but is a pursuit of the average person. OTOH, in America, we discuss sports, TV, and pro wrestling.


I'm not sure how true this axiom is in Europe. You don't think soccer and more country-specific sports (say hockey in Scandanavia) is heavily discussed in cafes in Europe. Also, I never understood why a discussion of the arts (which is simply a form of entertainment) is any more thought-provoking than a discussion of television or sports entertainment. Sounds like arguments I've had with my father who raves about the ballet and symphonies while criticizing athletes and rock stars making millions.
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Old 11-05-04, 01:40 PM
  #63  
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Originally posted by classicman2
Warning: I'm the only one on the forum who is permitted to use the word - hogwash!
Correct. Likewise "cockamamey" and "whippersnapper." And the mods will strictly enforce that rule with suspensions for non-<b>classicman2</b> users.

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Old 11-05-04, 02:53 PM
  #64  
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Originally posted by Red Dog
Also, I never understood why a discussion of the arts (which is simply a form of entertainment) is any more thought-provoking than a discussion of television or sports entertainment. Sounds like arguments I've had with my father who raves about the ballet and symphonies while criticizing athletes and rock stars making millions.
And this is coming from a person who loves classical music and literature. Please don't take this to mean that I'm picking on you specifically David, but I think that the attitude that discussion of the "arts" is inherently more important or valuable than say sports or TV is incredibly snobbish and arrogant (unless they're talking about wrestling of course ).
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Old 11-05-04, 03:14 PM
  #65  
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Okay. That's just my personal preference. I find sports discussion <i>astoundingly</i> dull and pointless, and I get frustrated that so much of our culture is devoted to it.

I will, however, maintain that developing an appreciation for the arts is a better use of one's time than watching TV or sports. Pop-culture entertainment is easily enjoyable because it doesn't challenge you to think. There's no subtlety or depth; it's all superficial drama. I challenge you to find any nuanced concepts in <i>The Bachelor</i>.

- David Stein
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Old 11-05-04, 03:19 PM
  #66  
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Originally posted by CRM114
I can see the boardrooms of the big investment banks drooling over the windfall. The expense of running these funds will be paid for by us of course. Instead of paying salaries for moderately paid bureaucrats, we'll be paying for houses in the Hamptons. Personally, I trust my money with the bureaucrats more than the investment banks.
Can't wait...
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Old 11-05-04, 03:36 PM
  #67  
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
Okay. That's just my personal preference. I find sports discussion <i>astoundingly</i> dull and pointless, and I get frustrated that so much of our culture is devoted to it.

I will, however, maintain that developing an appreciation for the arts is a better use of one's time than watching TV or sports. Pop-culture entertainment is easily enjoyable because it doesn't challenge you to think. There's no subtlety or depth; it's all superficial drama. I challenge you to find any nuanced concepts in <i>The Bachelor</i>.

- David Stein
Indeed. To each his own. But don't make the mistake of judging sports dull and pointless simply b/c you might not get it. I bet Red Dog and I could have a very in depth conversation regarding the intricacies of the West Coast offense and why Michael Vick is having a tough time adapting to it. Plenty of so called intellectuals enjoy and appreciate sports. Check out this dude...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7830541

Gregg Easterbrook will contribute his column to NFL.com readers each week during the NFL season. He is a senior editor of The New Republic, a contributing editor of The Atlantic Monthly and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. His latest book, The Progress Paradox, released by Random House, is in bookstores now.
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Old 11-05-04, 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Fokker's Feint
But don't make the mistake of judging sports dull and pointless simply b/c you might not get it. I bet Red Dog and I could have a very in depth conversation regarding the intricacies of the West Coast offense and why Michael Vick is having a tough time adapting to it.
That's fair. I admit that there's more depth to sports than to junk TV (and I unfairly launched the same criticism at both.)

I think my main complaint about sports discussion is that it's totally useless. You sit, you watch, you analyze, you form opinions... and that's the end of it. At least with politics, you get to vote. At least with the arts, you can create new works using principles gleaned from other art forms. With sports, unless you're a player or coach, the most you can do is - well - <i>fantasy sports leagues.</i>

Far off-topic, though. I'll leave my response at this.

- David Stein
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Old 11-05-04, 03:53 PM
  #69  
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
Okay. That's just my personal preference. I find sports discussion <i>astoundingly</i> dull and pointless, and I get frustrated that so much of our culture is devoted to it.

I will, however, maintain that developing an appreciation for the arts is a better use of one's time than watching TV or sports. Pop-culture entertainment is easily enjoyable because it doesn't challenge you to think. There's no subtlety or depth; it's all superficial drama. I challenge you to find any nuanced concepts in <i>The Bachelor</i>.

- David Stein

No offense, but you come off like a snob with this attitude.

I find the ballet, opera, and most of the arts dull and pointless. I don't see any greater thought required of them than watching a television show or movie. As your example of television and lack of nuance, you pick The Bachelor. Not really fair.
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Old 11-05-04, 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
That's fair. I admit that there's more depth to sports than to junk TV (and I unfairly launched the same criticism at both.)

I think my main complaint about sports discussion is that it's totally useless. You sit, you watch, you analyze, you form opinions... and that's the end of it. At least with politics, you get to vote. At least with the arts, you can create new works using principles gleaned from other art forms. With sports, unless you're a player or coach, the most you can do is - well - <i>fantasy sports leagues.</i>

Far off-topic, though. I'll leave my response at this.

- David Stein
show me a regular person that is creating new forms of opera or ballet?

I'm not a big sports fan, but I think there is more thought required in being a sports fan than an art fan. You go watch an opera or ballet and all you do is take the story in. When people discuss sports they argue about strategy, roster changes etc.
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Old 11-05-04, 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
Correct. Likewise "cockamamey" and "whippersnapper." And the mods will strictly enforce that rule with suspensions for non-<b>classicman2</b> users.

- David Stein
What about "bull feathers?"
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Old 11-05-04, 04:14 PM
  #72  
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Heh. Different discussion for a different thread, guys. I'll withdraw that sentiment from this discussion.

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Old 11-05-04, 04:41 PM
  #73  
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Originally posted by classicman2
Warning: I'm the only one on the forum who is permitted to use the word - hogwash!

It won't happen again, and steps have already been taken to correct the problem.
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Old 11-05-04, 04:44 PM
  #74  
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Originally posted by hahn
Again, leave Kerry out of this. He lost so we'll NEVER know what he would've done.
How can you leave Kerry out of it? It's the same situation. He wasn't going to pull a David Copperfield and pluck a few hundred billion out of the air.












Or was he...?
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Old 11-05-04, 04:50 PM
  #75  
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Back on topic and to stir the fire a bit...

Originally posted by taa455
Time will tell if the "theory" actually works. Let's see where the economy and deficit stand at the end of GWB's term.
Well...we already see what it's done for his first term. Spent the inherited surplus and raised the deficit.
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