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There they go again

Old 10-21-04, 04:16 PM
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There they go again

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008252.php

There they go again

Reader Richard Davis sent me an email regarding allegations by Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum that Democratic Governor Ed Rendell is trying to limit the vote of absentee military personnel while maximizing the vote of criminals.

I heard Sen. Rick Santorum on a radio interview last night on 1210 AM with Dom Giordano. He said that Gov. Ed Rendell will not extend the deadline for absentee ballots sent in by Pennsylvania soldiers. These ballots were sent only a day or two ago (maybe even Oct 20th), they are a month late (should have been sent no later than 9/22) and are due by Nov 1st. The [stated] reason they were sent late was because [of uncertainty as to whether Nader's name would be included]. There are 16,000 troops from PA, and more than 3/4 of them will probably vote for Bush. At the same time, Rendell is making sure that prisoners are assisted and hand-held so that they can send in absentee ballots from prison.
It seems clear that if the absentee ballots were sent out late, the deadline for return receipt should be extended as far out as reasonably possible.
If this story is actually truthful according to how presented here, this is outrageous. Anybody in PA have a contrary opinion to the goings on there?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:22 PM
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Rick Santorum is lot like Pat Robertson. As I alluded to in the other thread, I wouldn't pay attention to anything he says. Of course, who knows if he said this - this is hearsay.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:24 PM
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At the same time, Rendell is making sure that prisoners are assisted and hand-held so that they can send in absentee ballots from prison.


If they do extend the dead line then the election and the nation would have to wait for this new deadline to call the election right? Why do we need to extend it again? How long will it take to fill the ballot out?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank


If they do extend the dead line then the election and the nation would have to wait for this new deadline to call the election right? Why do we need to extend it again? How long will it take to fill the ballot out?
reason they were sent late was because [of uncertainty as to whether Nader's name would be included].
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Old 10-21-04, 04:29 PM
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I would like more confirmation of what's actually going on. As presented, it's hearsay x 4.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:30 PM
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Court Refuses Extension to Count Pa. Absentee Ballots

by KYW's Tony Romeo
A federal judge has denied a US Department of Justice motion to extend the deadline to count Pennsylvania’s overseas absentee ballots in the upcoming election.

The Justice Department sought the extension because of the uncertainty over whether to include Ralph Nader on the Pennsylvania ballot.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court earlier this week upheld a lower court ruling that strikes Nader from the ballot. Nader has vowed to appeal to the US Supreme Court (see related story).

Overseas ballots have been mailed -- some with Nader’s name included, some without.

Once the Nader issue is resolved, the Justice Department wanted correct ballots to be mailed out and an extension of the deadline for them to be counted.

But a federal judge says the Commonwealth demonstrated that an order to that effect would undermine the integrity and the efficiency of the election, and denied the request for an extension.
http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_de...wsitemid=41299
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Old 10-21-04, 04:32 PM
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Re: There they go again

Originally posted by natesfortune
If this story is actually truthful according to how presented here, this is outrageous. Anybody in PA have a contrary opinion to the goings on there?
Is it as outrageous as <a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390654&perpage=25&pagenumber=3">the deceptive registration of college students as Republican voters</a>? Your lack of response was surprising, given your apparent hypersensitivity to protecting the democratic process... and given that it was your thread.

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Old 10-21-04, 04:33 PM
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I was just reading and what I think is going on is the right is demanding all new ballots be made and sent without Naders name and then deadline extended to allow for the new ballots.

Not sure whats the point. If they already have ballots with Nader just use them - if they wanted to vote for Nader they could just write him in on the new ballot or pick him on the old one?

Do we really want to delay the election outcome for this?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:35 PM
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Yeap-

"The administration is also pleased that Judge Kane confirmed our position that any vote cast for Reform Party candidates Ralph Nader and Peter Miguel Camejo, who have been removed by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court from Pennsylvania ballots, should be counted as write-in votes. Governor Rendell, along with the Department of State is fully committed to a fair and efficient elections process in which every vote is counted."
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041021/phth049_1.html
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Old 10-21-04, 04:35 PM
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more goodies coming out

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-...l=all-news-hed

Rendell blasts critics of election watch plan
He says 'nonpartisan' project would help ensure fair outcome.

By John M.R. Bull
Of The Morning Call

HARRISBURG | Gov. Ed Rendell lashed out Wednesday at critics of his plan to put state bureaucrats in county election offices on Election Day, accusing naysayers of playing partisan politics to the detriment of fair elections.

And he said his top legal adviser for the project should be praised for not charging for his services, not condemned. Lawyer Mark Aronchick raised $100,000 for Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, until recently acted as the campaign's legal adviser here, and publicly said President Bush has ''a contemptible pseudosincerity.''

Rendell, a Democrat, said he wants to put state managers who serve at the governor's discretion into county election bureaus merely to act as ''eyes and ears'' for the state, liaisons who would help ensure the election is conducted fairly. His administration has not specified their role.

He said the project is ''nonpartisan'' and angrily accused Republicans and the media of raising questions ''through a warped perspective'' that antagonizes an already tense political season.

Asked if he would abandon the project, which has never been done before in Pennsylvania, he snapped: ''Are you kidding?''

Republicans, meanwhile, stepped up their attacks.

''Sinister is my word of the day,'' said Steve MacNett, general counsel for Senate Republicans. ''The role of these liaisons remain mysterious. I wouldn't presume to send out my teams to intrude in county election offices.''

House Majority Leader Sam Smith, R-Jefferson, jumped into the fray on Wednesday with a letter to the governor: ''We are asked not to talk about nefarious motives, yet what else should the people of Pennsylvania think as you were secretly planning to insert political appointees into each county on Election Day?''

A belated Rendell invitation issued Monday to Republicans to observe the state election department on Election Day was ''kind of like having your mother catch you with your hand in the cookie jar, then offering her a cookie,'' Smith complained.

The plan to put state managers, at least half of them attorneys, into county election bureaus came to light last week after an internal memo about a meeting was obtained by Republicans.

At that meeting, state managers who volunteered for the program weren't told what issues they would be asked to keep their eyes open for. But they were instructed not to participate if they handle federal money, because their participation could be viewed by federal officials as improper political activity.

Later, Republicans discovered that Mark Aronchick of Philadelphia is the project's legal adviser. He was a top lawyer in Al Gore's post-election legal challenges in Florida in 2000.

Aronchick was a legal adviser in Pennsylvania for Kerry until stepping down several weeks ago. He raised $100,000 for Kerry's campaign. Aronchick was quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer as saying President Bush is an ''evil force,'' with a ''heart of darkness'' and a ''contemptible pseudosincerity.''

Rendell on Wednesday angrily told reporters that Aronchick is working on the Election Day project for free and so should be praised, not criticized.

At a news conference Wednesday, Secretary of State Pedro Cortes said that election bureau watchers are needed to relate personally any problems to the Department of State. An extensive and ''well-tested'' e-mail network already exists between the state and county election bureaus.

Cortes said it was important to have attorneys involved because they could better understand any legal issues that arise. The lawyers in the program are not necessarily familiar with state election laws.

He said the state watchers, who would be given cell phones and dedicated phone numbers to the state Department of Elections, would be on hand to answer questions and report cases of voter intimidation or illegal voter suppression efforts.

Cortes said any such reports would be referred to political party officials or to county district attorneys for investigation and prosecution as warranted. Political parties have the legal standing to intervene in county election court actions.

Eight in 10 of the workers who have agreed to participate, he said, have worked for state government since before Rendell took office.

Republicans don't see a need for Rendell's watchers, and fear they would work to benefit the Democratic Party.

Rendell insisted that his project is not political, and angrily accused critics of unfairly suspecting there is a political motive.


riiiiiiiiiiight.......................... Sherlock
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Old 10-21-04, 04:37 PM
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natesfortune, maybe you could explain why this upsets you or did you not know they already got the ballots (but with Naders name)?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:39 PM
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Nonsense. There was a deadline and they went nearly a month over the deadline. Apparently, the prisoner ballots don't have to travel from Iraq thus no 9/22 deadline. One can't expect to change the deadline based on an if/then scenario with Nader.

Is the justice dept expecting PA to send out new ballots this week and have them back in hand by Nov 2?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:40 PM
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No just use the ones they already have and the nader votes would count as write ins
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Old 10-21-04, 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank
No just use the ones they already have and the nader votes would count as write ins

I don't think we need to worry about Nader votes.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:43 PM
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Something about this story seems off. Why would Republicans be pushing for a ballot without Nader on it?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank
I was just reading and what I think is going on is the right is demanding all new ballots be made and sent without Naders name and then deadline extended to allow for the new ballots.

Not sure whats the point. If they already have ballots with Nader just use them - if they wanted to vote for Nader they could just write him in on the new ballot or pick him on the old one?

Do we really want to delay the election outcome for this?
I agree with what you've stated as to the need for corrected ballots, but that's not the whole story....

Because the Democrats filed suit challenging Nader's ballot listing at such a late date, many PA jurisdictions delayed in sending out ballots to oversea military voters. In fact, many PA jurisdictions totally blew the 30 day guideline (ie. mail ballots at least 30 days prior to the election date). Some jurisdictions mailed these overseas absentee ballots just last week!

The problem, many overseas service members may not receive the ballots in time to return them. While we're not talking huge figures, it seems disingenious for the democratic administration to challenge extension of the filing times where the cause for the needed extension was a result of their own party's activism.

Further marking this as a questionable decision, Rendell and the administration reluctantly agreed to just such an extension for the April primary as a result of similar ballot confusion.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by RoboDad
Something about this story seems off. Why would Republicans be pushing for a ballot without Nader on it?
They merely want to artifically extend the deadline to maximize the PA military vote.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by wlmowery
I agree with what you've stated as to the need for corrected ballots, but that's not the whole story....

Because the Democrats filed suit challenging Nader's ballot listing at such a late date, many PA jurisdictions delayed in sending out ballots to oversea military voters. In fact, many PA jurisdictions totally blew the 30 day guideline (ie. mail ballots at least 30 days prior to the election date). Some jurisdictions mailed these overseas absentee ballots just last week!

The problem, many overseas service members may not receive the ballots in time to return them. While we're not talking huge figures, it seems disingenious for the democratic administration to challenge extension of the filing times where the cause for the needed extension was a result of their own party's activism.

Further marking this as a questionable decision, Rendell and the administration reluctantly agreed to just such an extension for the April primary as a result of similar ballot confusion.
Then we should push for fax of special air or even email for these special cases. That is far better then delaying the outcome - right?
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Old 10-21-04, 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by RoboDad
Something about this story seems off. Why would Republicans be pushing for a ballot without Nader on it?
The Dems sued to get Nader off the ballot in PA. The decision was rendered just last week removing Nader. Absentee ballots in many jurisdictions were withheld until the deceision, limiting the response time for overseas voters. Also, there was no uniformity in how the Nader situation was dealt with. Some ballot designs may be confusing.

Personally, I think new ballots are not necessary. However, I do think it fair to extend the return date to compensate for any delay in sending the ballots in the first place.
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Old 10-21-04, 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank
Then we should push for fax of special air or even email for these special cases. That is far better then delaying the outcome - right?
Again, not a problem if this is allowed and PAID for by the state, but the administration is again being a little slick. They say they are pushing for this, but, here, just over 1.5 weeks before election day there are no solutions in place to make sure that those receiving late absentee ballots are not disenfranchised.
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Old 10-21-04, 05:00 PM
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And again, remember this is not just a PA problem. I've read reports were ballots in some jurisdictions in other states were mailed as late as Oct. 19th/20th. Since the majority of states require the ballots be RECEIVED by election day, and given the fact that absentee overseas ballots may take 5-7 days each way via post, it's not hard to figure out that some who want to vote will not be able to cast valid ballots as a result of no fault of their own. This is unacceptable. The Commonwealth Administration should be ashamed of itself for letting the problem get to this stage and then proividing nary a clear solution. As there are other states that allow ballots received after the date of election (but post-marked by then) to be counted, I see no logical reason to withhold the easiest remedy here.
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Old 10-21-04, 05:06 PM
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I was just serching around and it seems that the ballots were mailed on time but with Nader (some without). The question is should new ones be sent.

This is where it gets messy on the rights side. The Right is only pushing for new ballots for the military and not for the whole state.
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Old 10-21-04, 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank


If they do extend the dead line then the election and the nation would have to wait for this new deadline to call the election right? Why do we need to extend it again? How long will it take to fill the ballot out?
Well, I don't know if this is true, that's why I posted it here to see if any PA Otters had any insight.

But if it is, they should extend the deadline because they just now mailed the ballots overseas - over a month late.

There were notorious problems in 2000 getting balltos to military overseas and back - it's not easy getting them to many places such as aircraft carriers, etc. It often takes weeks round-trip. Mailing them this late will likely make it impossible for many of these military to get them back on time, no matter how fast they fill them out and return them. This is especially true now that many ballots are having to go to war zones.

If they were supposed to mail them a month ago and didn't, it stands to reason there should be an extension - the troops should have their chance to vote. Just because Democrats went to court to throw Nader off the ballot and limit Democratic choice in this election it doesn't mean they should by extension make it impossible for our military men and women to get a vote, does it?

They did the same thing here in Arkansas - ballots didn't go out until the first of this month, and even THAT date was dicey(almost three weeks ago now) for getting ballots there and back - Democrat strategists here were giddy that they may have elminated some of the military vote that way.

You don't see a problem with not letting thousands of military people get a vote just because the state couldn't get its act together and wouldn't correct the problem it made?
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Old 10-21-04, 05:36 PM
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Re: Re: There they go again

Originally posted by sfsdfd
Is it as outrageous as <a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390654&perpage=25&pagenumber=3">the deceptive registration of college students as Republican voters</a>? Your lack of response was surprising, given your apparent hypersensitivity to protecting the democratic process... and given that it was your thread.

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I actually didn't see that. I will go to the thread and answer it now.
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Old 10-21-04, 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by bfrank
I was just reading and what I think is going on is the right is demanding all new ballots be made and sent without Naders name and then deadline extended to allow for the new ballots.

Not sure whats the point. If they already have ballots with Nader just use them - if they wanted to vote for Nader they could just write him in on the new ballot or pick him on the old one?

Do we really want to delay the election outcome for this?
But if PA is close and Kerry loses, the Kerry lawyer brigade will use those ballots with Nader's name on them to get all of those votes disqualified in any recount.

They pulled the same kind of stuff in Florida on military ballots in 2000 - don't know why they wouldn't do it here.

It's like a built-in backdoor to disqualify ten-thousand or so unfriendly votes if a recount situation arises in PA.
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