Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

What if the Electoral College and House tie?

Old 10-21-04, 10:02 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 519
What if the Electoral College and House tie?

Yeah, I think this was answered before, but I can't find the thread, and I've done hours of research on the web (maybe I'm not using the right terms), but I can't find the answers.

Say the candidates tie in the Electoral College at 269 to 269. From what I have found, I believe the vote goes to the House, with each state getting one vote each. Let's say, after abstentions, etc. that the vote is tied again.

What happens after that?

Feel free to just point me to links. My co-workers and I are wondering.....
Laertes is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:06 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
The sitting President gets to cast the tie-breaking vote?

Just kidding... it goes to Rock Scissors Paper, 2/3.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:08 AM
  #3  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 70,839
Gladiator pit.
Groucho is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:08 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 519
Normally, dude, I might think that was funny, especially if this were someone else's thread, but I've been trying to find the answer since yesterday.

Driving me crazy.
Laertes is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:12 AM
  #5  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 70,839
Would you rather I posted "I don't know"?

To be fair, I'm curious myself about this process. The whole Electoral College thing makes me nervous...they are deciding our president? For most college students, the biggest decision they make is whether to take another hit off the bong or to drink another beer.
Groucho is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:14 AM
  #6  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: is everything
Posts: 17,990
cockfight
Iron Chef is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:16 AM
  #7  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Texas! Damn right.
Posts: 11,089
It goes to Congress. Not sure how, I bet one could find out pretty quick with a Google.


EDIT; oops, didn't see that about the House in the title. Relevant info follows in my next post.

Last edited by Mutley Hyde; 10-21-04 at 10:35 AM.
Mutley Hyde is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:17 AM
  #8  
DVD Talk Legend
 
AGuyNamedMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: (formerly known as Inglenook Hampendick) Fairbanks, Alaska!
Posts: 15,252
from the 12th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America:

And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.
AGuyNamedMike is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:18 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Originally posted by Groucho
Would you rather I posted "I don't know"?


Until 1804, electors cast votes for candidates without saying whether they were voting for president or vice president. This system crashed and burned in 1800 when Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr each received 73 electoral votes. It took the House 36 votes before the tie was broken and Jefferson took office as President.
The 12th Amendment to the Constitution made sure that electors designate their votes for president and vice president. But, the 12th Amendment leaves in place a tie breaking system by which the House of Representatives breaks a tie on presidential electoral votes and the Senate breaks a tie on vice presidential electoral votes. This leaves open an intriguing possibility. Someday a President and Vice President from different political parties could be forced to serve together! What problems do you predict might occur from such an arrangement? Does it offer any benefits?
http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features...ecprocess.html

Edit: Looks like they just keep voting until it's decided.

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 10-21-04 at 10:22 AM.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:18 AM
  #10  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 70,839
So, basically Cheney gets the job for four years, and Bush is sent packing?
Groucho is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:19 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 519
Originally posted by Groucho
Would you rather I posted "I don't know"?

To be fair, I'm curious myself about this process. The whole Electoral College thing makes me nervous...they are deciding our president? For most college students, the biggest decision they make is whether to take another hit off the bong or to drink another beer.
I was actually writing the response to Thor, but you got in as I was typing, but whatever.

Well, ideally, you would have an answer, but I didn't mean to be crusty. I just want to know the answer.

I think I read that it comes down to candidates' spouses in a mud wrestling match.
Laertes is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:19 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Nazgul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Jayhawk Central, Kansas
Posts: 7,125
If it ties as far as it can go, won't the Senate President cast the deciding vote?
Nazgul is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:20 AM
  #13  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Texas! Damn right.
Posts: 11,089
Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
It goes to Congress. Not sure how, I bet one could find out pretty quick with a Google.
Here...

A majority is never guaranteed within the Electoral College. An election with no Electoral College majority could occur in two ways; if two candidates tie with 269 votes each or if three or more candidates receive Electoral votes.

If no Presidential candidate obtains a majority of the Electoral votes, the decision is deferred to the U.S. Congress. The House of Representatives selects the President, choosing between the top three candidates, and the Senate selects the Vice President, choosing between the top two candidates. In the House selection, each state receives only one vote and an absolute majority of the states (26) is required to elect the President. (In this situation, Washington, DC would lose the voting power given to it by the 23rd Amendment since it does not have the same Congressional representation given to the states).

However, a majority winner is not guaranteed in the Congress either. The states could feasibly split their votes equally between 2 candidates (25 state votes each) or the votes could be split between three candidates in such a way that no candidate receives a majority.

Also, since every state only gets one vote, the Representatives from each state must come to a decision on which candidate to support in the House. A state with an equal number of Representatives supporting the competing parties would not be able to cast its vote unless one Representative agreed to vote for the opposing side.

If a majority is not reached (for President) within the House by January 20 (the day the President and Vice President are sworn in), the elected Vice President serves as President until the House is able to make a decision. If the Vice President has not been elected either, the sitting Speaker of the House serves as acting President until the Congress is able to make a decision. If a President has been selected but no Vice President has been selected by January 20, the President then appoints the Vice President, pending approval by Congress.
Linky
Mutley Hyde is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:21 AM
  #14  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Article [XX.]

Section. 3. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
Venusian is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:23 AM
  #15  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,938
Yeah - I was going to say that the Speaker would serve as acting President (assuming that the VP is also 269-269 and 25-25).
Red Dog is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:23 AM
  #16  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Originally posted by Groucho
So, basically Cheney gets the job for four years, and Bush is sent packing?
Actually (in all seriousness) it would be Edwards acting as President until Congress sorts it out. Unless that was also a tie.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:26 AM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
why edwards? it looks like the Senate will stay Rep so Cheney will get that job.

I haven't bothered checking the makeup of all the state's delegations, but i would suspect most would lean Rep so that would go to Bush too
Venusian is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:34 AM
  #18  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,938
Originally posted by Venusian
why edwards? it looks like the Senate will stay Rep so Cheney will get that job.

I haven't bothered checking the makeup of all the state's delegations, but i would suspect most would lean Rep so that would go to Bush too

Yeah - it is neither since you have to assume that the electors and state delegations would vote the same way for Veep as Prez.

Like you said though, moot point because the GOP is all but certain to control 26+ state delegations.

I think the bigger fear than a tie-then-House scenario is the faithless elector scenario (either causing a tie or breaking a tie).
Red Dog is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:41 AM
  #19  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
why is a faithless elector such a big deal? electors are chosen by the states, its a state issue. It looks like the main chance of a faithless elector this year will be W. Va.
Venusian is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:42 AM
  #20  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 25,054
Originally posted by Venusian
why edwards? it looks like the Senate will stay Rep so Cheney will get that job.

I haven't bothered checking the makeup of all the state's delegations, but i would suspect most would lean Rep so that would go to Bush too
In the House, one state/one vote would throw it hard to the Republican side, even moreso than Electoral College. It obviously favorable low population rural states over big city states. Just look at the map of states and count red ones, there's only a handful of blue ones.
OldDude is online now  
Old 10-21-04, 10:44 AM
  #21  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Originally posted by OldDude
In the House, one state/one vote would throw it hard to the Republican side, even moreso than Electoral College. It obviously favorable low population rural states over big city states. Just look at the map of states and count red ones, there's only a handful of blue ones.
but you can't just look at that, you have to look at the makeup of each delegation.
Venusian is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 10:58 AM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 25,054
Originally posted by Venusian
but you can't just look at that, you have to look at the makeup of each delegation.
Technically true. A few counterarguments:

1) Electoral-vote.com used to have a table where this could be analyzed but it seems to have disappeared. I analyzed it to see what would happen with electoral vote splitting assuming each district would vote for President the way it voted for House member. It was clear that red states stayed red, and if all states did it, it was guarenteed for Bush. Sorry data is gone as that was clear cut -- trust me

2) The way the Reps have such large control of House is that even in blue states, the House delegation may be Rep majority due to out-state votes -- Michigan is a good example. A state has to be "mighty blue" to have a blue team in the House.

3) If I were a voter and the state voted "red" and the House delegation voted "blue" (or vice versa), those assholes would have to answer in two years when up for reelection. I believe most delegations would seriously be guided by the state's vote.
OldDude is online now  
Old 10-21-04, 10:59 AM
  #23  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,938
Originally posted by Venusian
why is a faithless elector such a big deal? electors are chosen by the states, its a state issue. It looks like the main chance of a faithless elector this year will be W. Va.

So if a Bush elector votes Kerry and causes Kerry to win 270-268, no problem with you?

Electors are not chosen by the states. When you vote for President, you are voting for a particular slate of electors as well.
Red Dog is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 11:02 AM
  #24  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Originally posted by Red Dog
So if a Bush elector votes Kerry and causes Kerry to win 270-268, no problem with you?

Electors are not chosen by the states. When you vote for President, you are voting for a particular slate of electors as well.
i'm not saying there won't be people complaining, but it wouldn't be a "constitutional crisis" or whatever.

i meant the electors represent the states. the state gets to decide how its chosen (all or none, by district, etc). so although people will be pissed, any legal issues will be dealt with on the state level.
Venusian is offline  
Old 10-21-04, 11:07 AM
  #25  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,938
Originally posted by Venusian
i'm not saying there won't be people complaining, but it wouldn't be a "constitutional crisis" or whatever.

i meant the electors represent the states. the state gets to decide how its chosen (all or none, by district, etc). so although people will be pissed, any legal issues will be dealt with on the state level.

I wasn't speaking as to legal problems (just as there are no legal problems with the question originally posed in this thread). I was speaking as to faith in the system. You already had a lot of bellyaching about the EC last time since it did not mirror the popular vote. Now imagine if the faithless elector comes up and tips an election - even more people would lose faith in how we conduct Presidential elections.
Red Dog is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.