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When the Man Comes Around (re: Pres. Bush)

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When the Man Comes Around (re: Pres. Bush)

Old 10-21-04, 08:50 AM
  #51  
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Originally posted by JasonF
First of all, I want to make it clear that I believe our Commander in Chief's feet smell like rose petals and sunshine.

[Irrelevant fluff excised]

Fourth of all, I forgot to mention the kittens and laundry. President Bush's feet also smell like newborn kittens and freshly laundered clothes.
Well, since you put it that way, I'm flattered.
Old 10-21-04, 09:24 AM
  #52  
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
However, those personal views must take a back seat the duties of a President to represent all people - agnostics and atheists included - and to maintain separation of church and state. Bush has done just the opposite: some of his key initiatives, including stem cell research and his opposition to gay marriage, stem primarily from his religious views. That is a violation of his oath of office: a promise to uphold the Constitution, primarily including the religious freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment.

In debate #2, Kerry stated the following, "Everything in my public life is guided by my faith, but I will in no way legislate that article of faith on other people." Is that not a mutually exclusive statement? After all, public life is the passing of laws, right? So, faith guides him to pass laws on poverty, the environment and fighting injustice - all of which he acknowledges stem from his religious beliefs. Is that not imposing his religious beliefs on the public as well?

The Judeo-Christian value system is also sound social policy. No murder, no stealing, no lying under oath, no sleeping with each other's spouses - these principles are good rules even apart from their religious association.

That's wholly different from allowing contemporary views of religion on issues like abortion to dictate a president's political actions.

Are you buying into the scare tactic that Bush is going to overturn Roe v. Wade? Both Bush and Kerry believe that life begins at conception. If anything, at least Bush is intellectually honest about that belief by focusing more on pro-life alternatives than his rival. Bush-appointed judges, when they've been able to get through the Senate, have backed the democratic process of lawmaking instead of imposing their own preferences and a change to that is highly unlikely.

Who are you kidding? Emotion drives both sides. The left gets emotional (and unreasonable) about personal liberties, about welfare, about environmentalism. The right gets equally emotional (and [at least] equally unreasonable) about patriotism and personal safety.

Let's not confuse social policy with disposition. Every American gets emotional when participating in an act of patriotism such as flag-waving or saying the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. However, the Left simply relies on emotion for more than the Right when enforcing social policy. For example, the Left thrives on envy and resentment. From that perspective, it is a moral conviction that someone has more than someone else. That is why the left values Equality over Liberty and for the Right, the opposite is true. Even in these debates, that logic was apparent. Kerry's equal pay talk...He wants government to dictate what the pay should be per unit of work whether performed by a man or a woman. Furthermore, there is a saying, "The Democratic party is the mommy party and the Republican party is the daddy party." (I don't recall who said it, but it was once in c-man's signature) What does this saying imply? It is common knowledge that women largely form decisions while relying on emotions and feelings far more than men do.
Old 10-21-04, 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
Ooops, sorry. That was my comeback for when people dare to attack F911.
You just keep pushing the idea that F 9/11 and this clip are exactly the same if that makes you feel better.
Old 10-21-04, 11:33 AM
  #54  
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
You just keep pushing the idea that F 9/11 and this clip are exactly the same if that makes you feel better.
They are the same. They use practically the same images. One shows Bush in a positive light. The other shows Bush in a negative light. The only difference is instead of the Johnny Cash song we have Micheal Moore spewing out on to his buffet plate.
Old 10-21-04, 11:34 AM
  #55  
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You just keep pushing the idea that F 9/11 and this clip are exactly the same if that makes you feel better.



This is much better than Far 9/11.
Old 10-21-04, 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by bhk


This is much better than Far 9/11.
Not taking a position on this, just curious. How so?
Old 10-21-04, 11:43 AM
  #57  
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How so?
Song is fun to listen to and by Johnny Cash
Message is conveyed in less than 5 minutes and on cue to the music.
Doesn't use wacky conspiracy theories to tie a presidential candidate to Saudi Arabian family.
Old 10-21-04, 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by bhk
Song is fun to listen to and by Johnny Cash
Message is conveyed in less than 5 minutes and on cue to the music.
Doesn't use wacky conspiracy theories to tie a presidential candidate to Saudi Arabian family.

Fair enough.
Old 10-21-04, 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by Mopower
They are the same. They use practically the same images. One shows Bush in a positive light. The other shows Bush in a negative light. The only difference is instead of the Johnny Cash song we have Micheal Moore spewing out on to his buffet plate.
They don't use practically the same images. That's false. Have you even seen F 9/11? These two things are not the same. Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.
Old 10-21-04, 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Mopower
They use practically the same images. One shows Bush in a positive light.
? How positive did you view that light?
Old 10-21-04, 12:18 PM
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I started to compose a post about F 9/11 being a logical argument -- not necessarily a sound or valid logical argument, but a logical argument nonetheless. Then I realized that half the people who criticize F 9/11 have never even seen it, and even those who have seen it and hate it could never be persuaded that it's any different from two hours of footage of Michael Moore screaming "George W. Bush rapes puppy dogs!" over and over. So anyway ...

F 9/11 is a logical argument. It may not be sound, it may not be valid (personally, I think portions of it are sound, portions of it are valid, portions of it are unsound, portions of it are invalid), but it is a logical argument. This video is not.
Old 10-21-04, 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by JasonF
F 9/11 is a logical argument.
Logic: The science or art of exact reasoning, or of pure and formal thought, or of the laws according to which the processes of pure thinking should be conducted; the science of the formation and application of general notions; the science of generalization, judgment, classification, reasoning, and systematic arrangement; correct reasoning.

There is nothing about F 9/11 that demonstrates any of these principles, especially correct reasoning.
Old 10-21-04, 12:55 PM
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F 9/11 is a logical argument. It takes premises, draws inferences from those premises, and uses them to reach a conclusion. That is the very definition of a logical argument, notwithstanding the fact that you can pluck one definition out of Miriam Webster's and point out how you believe that F 9/11 doesn't meet that definition. You may not think it's a sound argument. You may not think it's a valid argument. But it is an argument.

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Soc...ion/Logic.html
Old 10-21-04, 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by Contactsport1
? How positive did you view that light?
What? Besides the word ISLAM being shown (oh what a surprise that pisses some of you liberals off) what doesn't put Bush in a positive light on that video? Your question doesn't even make sense. "How positive did you view that light?" What does that mean?
Old 10-21-04, 01:06 PM
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I think I lost 20 IQ points just watching it...
Old 10-21-04, 01:12 PM
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Would it be better (though less topical) if I said that this was basically along the same lines as Bowling For Columbine?

Admittedly, one is set to music while the other is not, but from there, I am having a hard time seeing the difference, especially from what is intended. You can argue that BFC is intended to educate (and that is what Moore would claim is the purpose of F911), but I think reasonable people can clearly see that it is not the main purpose. The main purpose of all of these is to rally those sympathetic to the artist's position.

Then we can use the same stupid arguments about it.

This video was not about how great Bush was, just as BFC was not about the evils of guns. We can all feel like we won after we discuss points that we have come to believe because the obvious truth doesn't stick. We had to learn what to believe about these pieces, and now that we have, we feel better about our positions.
Old 10-21-04, 01:18 PM
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BFC, Like F 9/11 had premises, inferences, and conclusions. This is just a collection of images set to music.

Were BFC and F 9/11 objective? Of course not. Were they intended to advocate a particular point of view? Of course they were. But with both BFC and F 9/11, it was possible to say "I disagree with that premise, I don't think that conclusion follows from that statement, I think this inference is invalid." With this video, you can't say any of those things, because there are no premises, argument,s or conclusions -- just a series of images designed to provoke a visceral reaction.
Old 10-21-04, 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by JasonF
BFC, Like F 9/11 had premises, inferences, and conclusions.
So does this video. sfsdfd did a great job of summarizing them on the previous page.
Old 10-21-04, 01:49 PM
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Uh oh...two liberals are about to go at it.
Old 10-21-04, 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
Uh oh...two liberals are about to go at it.
Heh heh. Settle down. It's not like a lesbian pillow fight or anything.
Old 10-21-04, 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Geofferson
However, the Left simply relies on emotion for more than the Right when enforcing social policy. For example, the Left thrives on envy and resentment.
Yeah, that's persuasive. Allow me to respond in kind:

Argument: Republicans rely more on emotion than Democrats.

Supporting statement: For example, Republicans are manipulative demagogues who scare people into unreasonable support.

The first statement looks like an objective assessment, and implies that convincing factual evidence will follow. But when you follow that up with an absurd and hopelessly partisan statement, you destroy the promising start you had.
Originally posted by Geofferson
Furthermore, there is a saying, "The Democratic party is the mommy party and the Republican party is the daddy party." What does this saying imply? It is common knowledge that women largely form decisions while relying on emotions and feelings far more than men do.
1) Wow, that's mighty sexist.

2) If <b>jergen</b> puts in his signature that Republicans are brainless cowboys, can I then cite this as a proven and indisputable fact?

- David Stein
Old 10-21-04, 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
If <b>jergen</b> puts in his signature that Republicans are brainless cowboys, can I then cite this as a proven and indisputable fact?

- David Stein
Michael Moore would.
Old 10-21-04, 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by RoboDad
Michael Moore would.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that Michael Moore is just as correct as Geofferson, or that Geofferson is as bad as Michael Moore? Please clarify.

- David Stein
Old 10-21-04, 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by sfsdfd
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that Michael Moore is just as correct as Geofferson, or that Geofferson is as bad as Michael Moore? Please clarify.

- David Stein
I leave that to the reader to decide.
Old 10-21-04, 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by RoboDad
I leave that to the reader to decide.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't expect a big thank-you from <b>Geofferson</b> for that...

- David Stein

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