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Kerry's Liberal Healthcare idea receives crushing blow...

Old 10-14-04, 11:30 PM
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Kerry's Liberal Healthcare idea receives crushing blow...

If Bush could exploit it, that is. He missed a golden opportunity to do so in last night's debate.

Specifically, I'm talking about the flu vaccine issue. Some are saying the vaccine shortage could cause more deaths in this country than the number who died on 9/11 from terrorism.

And this is a direct failure of the very kind of liberalism Kerry is trying to install in our healthcare now.

We were supposed to get over 110 million flu shots. We only have 55 million now, because one of the companies that provides the shots had a contaminated strain and we couldn't use their stuff. As a result, there are babies in the high-risk 11-23 month range, among others, who are being turned away from vaccination because of the shortage.

This is a direct result of "Hillarycare".

The Clinton's started this menace in the late nineties when they instituted this "compassionate" program to make vaccines cost less for people. Their goal was to get a normal round of $600 vaccines down to a more-affordable $400 level. Their method? The same "bulk buying" that Kerry and liberals on this very board are decrying wasn't used in the Medicare Bill - a euphamism for simple price controls.

The CDC, thanks to the Clintons, now "bulk buys" vaccines, and they cap the amount of profit the vaccine companies can make on these sales. This was supposed to bring costs down while controlling the eeeevil profit-seeking drug companies and help more kids get vaccinated, but it didn't work.

The same percentage, about 73% of kids are getting vaccinated now as when the program started - this percentage has stagnated after the institution of hte program - it had been steadily rising before. Also, FAR less adults are getting vaccinated than before.

As all other liberal programs, this "brilliant, compassionate plan" was well-intended, but ultimately had the opposite effect of its feel-good intentions. As a result of these price controls and, to a lesser extent lawsuits(tort reform being another thing Democrats oppose steadfastly because of their trial lawyer lobby), it simply wasn't profitable it to be in the vaccine business anymore and businesses just quit doing it, moving on to ventures where money could actually be made.

Feel-good liberal intervention caused it to simply not be worth it to stay in the vaccine business, and now far fewerecompanies are making vaccines for us than before.

Aside from the more long-range but equally important question of, "isn't it much worse that there are far fewer companies competing to develop new vaccines for us?", we now have the more immediate consequence to deal with - our current flu-shot shortage crisis.

This is directly tied to Kerry's plans, the socialization of medicine and liberalism in general. It's a classic case of the kinds of naive "feel-good" initiatives designed to be "compassionate" which just result in making life worse for us all while stifling future innovations.

Kerry and the other Democrats' call for Medicare to be able to do the same thing as above would result in the same result - a catastrophe for medicine in general as companies would tend to just throw up their hands and say "screw it" in the face of government price controls that made it not worthwhile to continue business in that sector.

This stuff takes some explanation, so it will be hard for Bush to make it an issue in this sound-bite environment, and it's in opposition to the kind of "feel-good" crud that makes liberalism in general so perfect for sound-bites - "sounds good, and the other side is forced to go into longer explanations as to why it doesn't work, so it sounds like they're against something that's "compassionate" - it's hard to fight that.

Bush, however, had the opportunity to cut through all that in the debate last night, and he missed it.

At least it's a model and an example for the future, when people start up with the socialized medicine nonsense again.

In the meantime, we should all hope and pray for a mild-flu season, as thanks to HIllarycare, far more lives will be at risk this year than should be.
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Old 10-14-04, 11:34 PM
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how devastatingly Shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"crushing blow!"


THE FUN IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-14-04, 11:46 PM
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From the wall street Journal last December....


Where's My Flu Shot?

A few weeks from now, when the country has run out of flu vaccine and people want to know why, we suggest they knock on the doors of Senators Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins and Lincoln Chafee. Perhaps the three Republicans can explain when they intend to honor their promise to hold an open debate about the tort liabilities facing vaccine makers.

The only two suppliers of flu shots reported Friday that supplies are running out. The Centers for Disease Control is now urging health-care providers to reserve the shots for those most at risk. That leaves millions worrying that someone in their family might be next to die from a bad case of flu.

The reason for today's shortage -- as well as seven previous preventive vaccine shortages since 2000 -- is that there are just five vaccine makers. This lack of suppliers is partly thanks to Hillary Clinton, who as first lady turned government into the majority buyer of vaccines and pushed prices so low as to make business unsustainable. (This price-control approach, we'd note, is what Democrats would now like to inflict on the new Medicare drug program.)

But just as worrying to manufacturers is an explosion of class action lawsuits. Vaccine makers are supposed to be protected from suits by 1986 legislation, but tort lawyers have found loopholes and filed more than 200 cases. The Republican leadership fixed this by including a liability provision in the Homeland Security legislation of a year ago. That is, until Ms. Snowe, Ms. Collins and Mr. Chafee objected to its "dark of the night" insertion and forced Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist into repealing it.


In return for their victory, the Senators promised an open debate on broad liability reform within six months. That would have been ... June. But the Senate canceled a markup on a reform bill in April and the Senators have gone quiet. Apparently, making sound vaccine policy isn't as politically rewarding as preening before the media by standing up to "special interests" (vaccine makers). So what's your solution for the flu-shot shortage, Senators?

http://washingtontimes.com/national/...0855-1153r.htm
Seriously man.....i'm not sure how this is a crushing blow to anything...however it is a hilarious reminder of your affinity for over-the-top liberal bashing.
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Old 10-14-04, 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by brizz
From the wall street Journal last December....




Seriously man.....i'm not sure how this is a crushing blow to anything...however it is a hilarious reminder of your affinity for over-the-top liberal bashing.
Actually, the article you posted confirms everything I said.

I talked about lawsuits, and that also fits my "liberal bashing" since Democrats are the ones holding up serious tort reform because of their trial lawyer lobby.

The part of the article(which you said was from the Wall Street Journal but was actually from the Washington Times) that you didn't choose to bold, also fits what I wrote perfectly:

The reason for today's shortage -- as well as seven previous preventive vaccine shortages since 2000 -- is that there are just five vaccine makers. This lack of suppliers is partly thanks to Hillary Clinton, who as first lady turned government into the majority buyer of vaccines and pushed prices so low as to make business unsustainable. (This price-control approach, we'd note, is what Democrats would now like to inflict on the new Medicare drug program.)
And, not sure if you know this, but the Senators you name are liberal Republicans. They routinely vote against the party and are among the least-liked Republicans by Conservatives and Libertarians alike - just the standard Northeastern Liberals that call themselves Republicans - many have affixed the lable "RINO" to these people, "Republican In Name Only".

And regardless, you didn't answer what I said about liberal healthcare and Kerry's proposals - instead, you posted an article that AGREES with what I said point by point, with only the fact that the 3 Northeastern Liberal Republicans were also to blame as your additional "point". You then tried to laugh me off without offering any rebuttal at all...

er... should I say thank you?

Last edited by natesfortune; 10-15-04 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 10-15-04, 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by brizz
Seriously man.....i'm not sure how this is a crushing blow to anything...however it is a hilarious reminder of your affinity for over-the-top liberal bashing.
Once again, you didn't tell me how I was wrong, you merely posted an article that agrees with my conclusions, only adding that three people that are part of the problem just happen to be the three most liberal and least-liked by the party Republicans in the Senate, the ones who routinely vote against the party...

So how are you not sure what I said was a "crushing blow" to Kerry's plans?

This liberal healthcare idea has motivated a national tragedy with our vaccinations, and it was completely unnecessary - caused by bad liberal policy to make people "feel good" and enhance the Clinton's standing with the public.

But look at the results.

Way to go liberal healtchare.
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Old 10-15-04, 12:27 AM
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I posted the flu shot story in Other last week I think. I believe the report said that the company with the contaminated strand was a major British firm. I was appalled at how much of the nation's flu vaccine supply was dependent on a single foreign company. But I don't know where to start with the blaming.
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Old 10-15-04, 02:20 AM
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Are you trying to see how many times you can write "liberal" in a post? It's pretty amusing how it has taken on such a negative connoitation for some people.

Anyway, I'd have to say that you're only partially right about this topic. You would be correct about some of the other vaccines such as MMR, where the price caps have resulted in most suppliers avoiding the US market.

However,the Flu Vaccine is mostly purchased by non-governmental organizations, and the price is set by the free market. The unpredictability of this market (in terms of demand and market price) and the risks (FDA regulations, fines, lawsuits, difficulties in making flu vaccines, etc...) make it unattractive to suppliers. You are correct about the lawsuits contributing to the flu vaccine shortage, but wrong about price controls and "liberal" healthcare.

This latest crisis may help drive up the future market price of flu vaccines, and bring more suppliers into the US market though. Glaxo is reportedly interested in the US market now. They decided not to enter the US flu vaccine market in 1992 (when they launched their vaccine) due to too much competition.


http://www.freep.com/news/nw/flu11e_20041011.htm

Drug companies have pulled out of flu vaccine production because it's not very profitable and it's financially risky, experts said.

One big problem is that demand for flu shots fluctuates from year to year as public interest waxes and wanes. Last season brought huge demand for a flu shot; the year before, there was little interest, Poland said. If a flu shot isn't used during the season, it must be discarded. So companies generally throw away millions of doses a year, Poland said.

http://www.independent.org/publicati...&articleID=213

A long paper about the causes of past flu vaccine shortages. Too long to post here.
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Old 10-15-04, 03:43 AM
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I noticed Kerry attacked Bush on the vaccine issue last night. The soundbyte I heard on the news was something like: "Now we face a national health crisis because America doesn't have enough flu vaccine. George Bush's answer 'If your healthy don't get vaccinated.' That's kind of like his health plan. (fake laugh, no audience reaction)."

I though 'If your healthy don't get vaccinated' was the standard procedure when the vaccine was in short supply.


edit: I meant healthy, but left the y off twice.

Last edited by wmansir; 10-15-04 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-15-04, 08:53 AM
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Kerry, in the third debate, misspoke (or lied) about his health care plan. He said it covered 'all Americans.' Not true. At best, only 92% would be covered. Probably considerably less than that.

It doesn't matter, however. Why? It can't be funded. This is according to the CBO.
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Old 10-15-04, 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by Ranger
I posted the flu shot story in Other last week I think. I believe the report said that the company with the contaminated strand was a major British firm. I was appalled at how much of the nation's flu vaccine supply was dependent on a single foreign company. But I don't know where to start with the blaming.
According to President Bush it's all the fault of the trial lawyers.
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Old 10-15-04, 09:12 AM
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I'm just wondering what the hell this has to do with Bush, Kerry, or the old Republican fallback, the trial lawyer scapegoat.

This was a English company, not an American one. Their production was in Liverpool, England. Not in the US. Their production was shut down by the English government, not the US. So what exactly, natesfortune, does this have to do with "liberal" policies?

For someone who likes to call themselves a libertarian, you're about the most biased conservative on this board.
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Old 10-15-04, 09:16 AM
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I'd have to classify this as a "shocking" BLIP in an uneventful 3rd Presidential debate.
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Old 10-15-04, 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by wmansir
I noticed Kerry attacked Bush on the vaccine issue last night. The soundbyte I heard on the news was something like: "Now we face a national health crisis because America doesn't have enough flu vaccine. George Bush's answer 'If your healthy don't get vaccinated.' That's kind of like his health plan. (fake laugh, no audience reaction)."
at Kerry

Yeah, and I remember from the debate Bush giving a very nice answer as to why the vaccine was produced over seas (see above posts - mainly lawsuits). Kerry responded by saying something about he would fix the problem by giving everyone health care.

That's going to fix a vaccine shortage?
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Old 10-15-04, 09:39 AM
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I've never gotten a flu shot (and I might add that my father is a doctor). I never understood the need for them.
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Old 10-15-04, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by WildcatLH
I'm just wondering what the hell this has to do with Bush, Kerry, or the old Republican fallback, the trial lawyer scapegoat.
Well, the way I see it, this is an example of what would happen more often if:

1. drugs were purchased in bulk with a profit ceiling - coupled with the ever present litigation threat, making it not feasible for US companies to compete - and setting up further "all your eggs in one basket" problems as seen with this current mess.

2. drugs were imported at drastically cheaper prices from Canada - again leading US drug companies to either not develop drugs at all due to lack of profit, or to do so in over countries in ways that might not be safe

Kerry supports both 1 and 2 while Bush does not. Trail lawyers factor into why the vaccine was being created abroad.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:01 AM
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I've never gotten a flu shot (and I might add that my father is a doctor). I never understood the need for them.
I think it's just become part of the indoctrination people have gone through that we need medicine/vaccine/pills for everything/anything. Personally I think Americans are over medicated and that has much to do w/ the price of medicine as much as lawsuits or "greedy" corporations.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by Red Dog
I've never gotten a flu shot (and I might add that my father is a doctor). I never understood the need for them.
Please try to stay on topic Red Dog.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by SunMonkey
Well, the way I see it, this is an example of what would happen more often if:

1. drugs were purchased in bulk with a profit ceiling - coupled with the ever present litigation threat, making it not feasible for US companies to compete - and setting up further "all your eggs in one basket" problems as seen with this current mess.

2. drugs were imported at drastically cheaper prices from Canada - again leading US drug companies to either not develop drugs at all due to lack of profit, or to do so in over countries in ways that might not be safe

Kerry supports both 1 and 2 while Bush does not.
That's odd, since apparently Bush's grand solution to the problem is to import the vaccine from Canada.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Red Dog
I've never gotten a flu shot (and I might add that my father is a doctor). I never understood the need for them.
If you worked in a health care facility, you might think differently.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by nemein
I think it's just become part of the indoctrination people have gone through that we need medicine/vaccine/pills for everything/anything. Personally I think Americans are over medicated and that has much to do w/ the price of medicine as much as lawsuits or "greedy" corporations.

I would agree.



If you worked in a health care facility, you might think differently.
Somehow I doubt that most of the people who get flu shots are health care workers.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:48 AM
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If you worked in a health care facility, you might think differently.
Those people, the elderly/infirmed/young are the only groups that I see that may have a legit need for them. In general though I think people get them because they are told they need them when it's not really the case.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:48 AM
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What group do you believe does get the most flu shots - be careful now?
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Old 10-15-04, 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
What group do you believe does get the most flu shots - be careful now?

Which group? I say non-health care workers.
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Old 10-15-04, 10:53 AM
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Flu vaccine:
If you work in healthcare(direct patient contact only) you should get it. Bush is right otherwise that if you're healthy, save the vaccine for people who really need it: the very young and the old. The mortality from the flu for the former group is very low(healthy young and middle aged people), while the mortality for the latter is still low but a lot higher than the first group.
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Old 10-15-04, 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by nemein
Those people, the elderly/infirmed/young are the only groups that I see that may have a legit need for them. In general though I think people get them because they are told they need them when it's not really the case.
in the military everyone gets it every year
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