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What is an Atheist voter to do?

Old 10-13-04, 11:31 PM
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What is an Atheist voter to do?

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George Bush says that The Almighty is the giver of freedom so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.

John Kerry trumps that and says that The Almight is the giver of everything, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of you.

George Bush takes his religion seriously and it affects who he is so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.

John Kerry has a deep faith that has gotten him through tough times and has shaped his life, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of you.

George Bush prays so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.

John Kerry prays too, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of you.

George Bush says that he respects the freedom of everyone to worship however they want or even not at all, so I can clearly not take the candidate in front of me.

John Kerry says that he respects the fact that people can have different religions and faiths than his own, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of you.

Some say that George Bush pushes his religion on American so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.

An example of that is the fact that he disagrees with gay marriage....which John Kerry also disagrees with, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of you.

But Republicans really push religion on people so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.

But Bill Clinton used "The Almighty" far more in speeches than Bush does, and he enacted the Defence of Marriage Act, so I can clearly not choose the candidate in front of me.



So tell me again how Bush is the crazed religous zealot, and Kerry (or Clinton, or Gore, or anyone else) isn't. In fact, it might even be nice to have something to back it up....like a litmus test of sorts.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:38 PM
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Kerry isn't going to elect Conservative Christinan judges that will overturn Roe V. Wade or other constitutional rights.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:42 PM
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Pat Robertson said that "Bush has truly been blessed by the lord so it doesn't matter what he does good or bad." So since Pat's down with the man, he would know who has the inside track on being the chosen one
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Old 10-13-04, 11:42 PM
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Bush wont elect "Christinan" judges but he might appoint Christian's to the bench
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Old 10-13-04, 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by Michael Ballack
Kerry isn't going to elect Conservative Christinan judges that will overturn Roe V. Wade or other constitutional rights.
Now let's be a thinker. On WHAT do you base the idea that George Bush will? And on WHAT do you believe that he can get someone like that through the Senate? And HOW would it even effect our lives? As everyone who has started using two syllable words should know, Roe v. Wade did not make it legal in the first place, nor would it keep it from being legal if it were overturned.

But forgetting that. Based on what can you support what you have just said?
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Old 10-13-04, 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by Kaffe_02
Bush wont elect "Christinan" judges but he might appoint Christian's to the bench
Kerry won't?
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Old 10-13-04, 11:49 PM
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Re: What is an Atheist voter to do?

Originally posted by kvrdave
...So tell me again how Bush is the crazed religous zealot...
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/f...d_funding.html

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/b...religious.html

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/bush_moab.html


Originally posted by kvrdave
...and Kerry (or Clinton, or Gore, or anyone else) isn't.
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/kerry_watch.html

Originally posted by kvrdave
In fact, it might even be nice to have something to back it up....like a litmus test of sorts.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:51 PM
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I don't base my vote on whether or not the candidate invokes god; they all do it. I base my vote on whether or not they say that their religion has an influence on their policies.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:51 PM
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Now let's be a thinker. On WHAT do you base the idea that George Bush will? And on WHAT do you believe that he can get someone like that through the Senate? And HOW would it even effect our lives? As everyone who has started using two syllable words should know, Roe v. Wade did not make it legal in the first place, nor would it keep it from being legal if it were overturned.
George Bush is the same person LEADING a movment for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriages. Bush has made comments before saying that he would like to overturn Roe V. Wade. I don't have the exact quote, but i'm sure I heard a sound bite on the radio from a press conference at his Dude Ranch stating the above.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet
I don't base my vote on whether or not the candidate invokes god; they all do it. I base my vote on whether or not they say that their religion has an influence on their policies.
Crap, what did the candidates say tonight to that question again? Well, there's always Nader.
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Old 10-13-04, 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by Michael Ballack
George Bush is the same person LEADING a movment for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriages. Bush has made comments before saying that he would like to overturn Roe V. Wade. I don't have the exact quote, but i'm sure I heard a sound bite on the radio from a press conference at his Dude Ranch stating the above.
Is Kerry for or against Gay Marriage?

I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of stuff I heard too. And I think you would believe it just as much.

Face it....liberals love a "religious zealot" to fight against, but both candidates effectively say the same thing with regards to the role of religion in their life. It's okay. We don't have to like it. But as much as atheists hate a religious zealot, their candidate will always pander to the religious. Just the way it is.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
Crap, what did the candidates say tonight to that question again? Well, there's always Nader.


Yeah, yeah, I know. But for whatever reason, I really believe Kerry is just pandering, while Bush actually believes it. Like when Bush said he prayed before deciding to go to war with Iraq... that scares me.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet
I don't base my vote on whether or not the candidate invokes god; they all do it. I base my vote on whether or not they say that their religion has an influence on their policies.


So you aren't voting for Mr. Kerry then, given that he admits to this? Or are you voting for one of them because of they do this?
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Old 10-14-04, 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
So you aren't voting for Mr. Kerry then, given that he admits to this? Or are you voting for one of them because of they do this?
Where exactly has Kerry said this? I remember in the second debate he specifically said that while he personally believes abortion is morally wrong, he doesn't believe that that is a reason to make it illegal.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:04 AM
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Is Kerry for or against Gay Marriage?

I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of stuff I heard too. And I think you would believe it just as much.

Face it....liberals love a "religious zealot" to fight against, but both candidates effectively say the same thing with regards to the role of religion in their life. It's okay. We don't have to like it. But as much as atheists hate a religious zealot, their candidate will always pander to the religious. Just the way it is.?






Kerry isn't leading a movement or the one proposing an amendment against gay marriage. Did you not hear the question the debate moderator asked tonight using Bush's quote that he spoke to "a higher being" rather then his own father? If that isn't religous zealot, I don't know what is.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet


Yeah, yeah, I know. But for whatever reason, I really believe Kerry is just pandering, while Bush actually believes it. Like when Bush said he prayed before deciding to go to war with Iraq... that scares me.

It's funny, but one of the main Washington dailys, (can't remember which, either Roll Call or the Journal), made that same point about the President. The point being, he isn't nearly the zealot in his day to day life that many people think, that he lets on to that for political reasons, though he is personally a devout man.

Not giving my opinion, just found it amusing in the context.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet
Where exactly has Kerry said this? I remember in the second debate he specifically said that while he personally believes abortion is morally wrong, he doesn't believe that that is a reason to make it illegal.

He stated it clearly tonight, right before the not so subtle attempt at making a comparison to Kennedy.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:07 AM
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Re: Re: What is an Atheist voter to do?

What was Kerry's stance on Faith Based funding? I believe he "lead the charge" in the 2nd debate.

I'm not saying Bush isn't a religious guy, I am asking how it is any different than Kerry. Isn't Kerry in support of this as well?

The point is, if you hate Bush because of religion, then wake up.
This is just an editorial and has nothing to do with policy, but rather with war and the bomb. Won't Kerry protect us at any cost, and take on terrorists with all force necessary (except nukes). So again, this is a difference between the two HOW?
Does this not make my point.....ahem
BAD: Voted YES on bill which stated that "erecting religious symbols and praying on public school campuses as part of a memorial service does not violate the First Amendment to the Constitution." (5/18/1999, Bill #S 254)


BAD: In '92, a bill was proposed to exclude federal charity funds from any charity that has withdrawn support for the Boy Scouts of America because the charity disagrees with the Scouts' admission policy barring atheists and homosexuals. Kerry voted NO on this bill. In other words, he said charities should still receive federal charity funding even though they withdrew support for the Boy Scouts for barring atheists. (9/22/1992, Bill #HR 5504)


BAD: Currently opposes the provisions of the Patriot Act, yet he voted YES on the Patriot Act in 2001. Now, he correctly points out the violations of civil liberties under the Act. But, he said that "I voted for the Patriot Act right after September 11th convinced that with a sunset clause it was the right decision to make. It clearly wasn't a perfect bill and it had a number of flaws but this wasn't the time to haggle. It was the time to act." We say that a terrorist act should NOT make our leader act in irrational ways by approving laws filled with "flaws"!


BAD: Currently opposes our strategy in the Iraq war, yet he voted for the war.
The good basically has to do with war (and some of the bad for Kerry does as well), but doesn't this show that Kerry is essentially the same? I think it is just because Pat Robertson, etc. do not support Kerry. But you should be smart enough to know that is not religion, but politics. Just like the Reverend Al Sharpton, or the Reverend Jessie Jackson do not support Kerry on religous grounds, but rather on political ones.

So if you hate Bush because Pat Robertson likes him, that is fine and dandy, but when you look at what the two say, and what the two do, you have to vote for a Christian whose faith plays a big part of who they are. Don't kid yourself and say that you aren't. You are.


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Old 10-14-04, 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by Michael Ballack
Kerry isn't leading a movement or the one proposing an amendment against gay marriage. Did you not hear the question the debate moderator asked tonight using Bush's quote that he spoke to "a higher being" rather then his own father? If that isn't religous zealot, I don't know what is.
Hell, Clinton wouldn't even let the states decide by a vote of all people....he went and signed the DOMA. He lead one hell of a movement, and Kerry voted for it.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
He stated it clearly tonight, right before the not so subtle attempt at making a comparison to Kennedy.
Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me.

And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic.

My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead.

And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people.
Is that what you're talking about? Obviously, the key statement here is "but without transferring it in any official way to other people".

As long as Kerry does not say "I believe that Jesus is awesome so I must sign bill x" I don't necessarily have a problem with that. Do I wish we had a president that didn't feel the need to bring his faith into politics, or even *gasp* not have any? Sure.

The choice comes down to a candidate who takes the Bible literally and wants to legislate accordingly, and a candidate who doesn't.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet


Yeah, yeah, I know. But for whatever reason, I really believe Kerry is just pandering, while Bush actually believes it. Like when Bush said he prayed before deciding to go to war with Iraq... that scares me.
Man I love you That is absolutely the only truthful answer around. It isn't that Clinton didn't invoke the name of God all the time, it's that we didn't really believe it was anything more than good speech writing.

So in the end, an atheist has to believe that they are either voting for a religious zealot, or take it on faith that they are lying to pander to the people. Nice choice. But remember, even though they are lying about this, the rest of the stuff they say we can believe.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by TracerBullet

As long as Kerry does not say "I believe that Jesus is awesome so I must sign bill x" I don't necessarily have a problem with that. Do I wish we had a president that didn't feel the need to bring his faith into politics, or even *gasp* not have any? Sure.

The choice comes down to a candidate who takes the Bible literally and wants to legislate accordingly, and a candidate who doesn't.
But again, this must be taken on faith, based on what each said tonight. Can you point to something that Bush has done because of his faith (religous type legislation) that Kerry has actually opposed?

It's nice to say that one is much more of a zealot than the other, but when looking at their "deeds" they appear to be twins from what I can see.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
Man I love you That is absolutely the only truthful answer around. It isn't that Clinton didn't invoke the name of God all the time, it's that we didn't really believe it was anything more than good speech writing.

So in the end, an atheist has to believe that they are either voting for a religious zealot, or take it on faith that they are lying to pander to the people. Nice choice. But remember, even though they are lying about this, the rest of the stuff they say we can believe.
Aw, Dave! You love me! Let's go get gay married!

And yes, that's basically it. Such is being an atheist voter in America.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
But again, this must be taken on faith, based on what each said tonight. Can you point to something that Bush has done because of his faith (religous type legislation) that Kerry has actually opposed?

It's nice to say that one is much more of a zealot than the other, but when looking at their "deeds" they appear to be twins from what I can see.
Well, I can't point to something specific that Bush has done, but I can point to something specific that he wishes he could do: recriminalizing abortion.
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Old 10-14-04, 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by kvrdave
But again, this must be taken on faith, based on what each said tonight. Can you point to something that Bush has done because of his faith (religous type legislation) that Kerry has actually opposed?
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