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Untitled grundle COVID-19 thread

Old 03-23-20, 05:11 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by hal9000 View Post
The scam is, stay home, don't go out to eat, but go through the drive-thu meanwhile sit down restaurants are literally getting destroyed because they aren't set up for nor are people used to getting "take out" pancakes from places like I-Hop. Stay home, but go to the market and rub elbows with other people, touch packages/boxes/milk/produce that have been touched by countless other people. This is how ridiculous and absurd this whole process is. YES, I agree be mindful if you have a cough, maybe stay home, and everyone should do your best to practice good hygiene. The one upside to all of this is hopefully people will continue to wash their hands often, i.e., ALL THE TIME.

The scam is, we are way overreacting to this, look at the numbers above in this thread, the yearly flu kills a hell of a lot more (and, yes, without making this political) COVID-19 is the one that "they" have successfully scared the shit out of you with.

EDIT TO ADD: Speaking of panic, who else is old enough to remember when "Africanized Killer Bees" was a thing? It was the late 1970's when news of these bees that were migrating and going to be on American shores by the late 1980s/90s and once here, they were going to kill everyone and everything in their path! My seven year old self was pissing my pants while I watched episodes of the Bionic Man, all the while in the back of my mind worrying about the swarm of bees that was going to eat me alive in ten years.

I very much agree with you on this on hypocrisy of going out to buy food while supposedly being under "quarantine" or "shelter in place."

I remember that in the 1970s they said the killer bees (and the fire ants too) were advancing further and further north every year, and feeling scared about both.
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Old 03-23-20, 05:23 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
The US now has 100+ people dying per day. If a random jetliner were crashing in the county once a day would you "no big deal" folks be fine with the country doing nothing?
Most of those 100+ people already had some other serious, potentially fatal comorbidity.

If a random jetliner crashed every day, but those same people would have died in car crashes anyway, then no, I wouldn't recommend doing anything.

I never said this is "no big deal." What I did say is that most of these deaths are happening in old, sick people who would have died soon anyway.
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Old 03-23-20, 05:49 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I agree. A "quarantine" or "shelter in place" doesn't mean anything if people are still going shopping for groceries.

And yes, a lot of people who are "dying from COVID-19" already had other preexisting conditions that would have killed them anyway.
We are not just talking about people dying from the disease that may well have died anyways. There are LOTS of people that will require hospitalization and ICUs that may survive. We do not want to get into a situation like Italy where they need to triage the older patients and leave them to treat the younger patients.
The CDC is reporting that around 40% of the case requiring hospitalization are from patients 20-54 years old.
https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/mar/2...ortion-us-cov/
This was also seen in South Korea.
I agree that the US has a lot of people with preexisting conditions such as high blood pressure (highest risk), (along with age), obesity, smoking, heart disease. It is important now that we do not overwhelm the medical system as they are pleading for more PPEs and ventilators and time to prepare for the onslaught and TESTS for the front line health providers. We need to give these people, as much time to prepare for what is coming.
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Old 03-23-20, 06:04 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I never said this is "no big deal." What I did say is that most of these deaths are happening in old, sick people who would have died soon anyway.
Sorry grundle, but I would implore you to stop posting statements like this in this thread that aren't backed up with linked data. And you should start responding to the people that are refuting your position with linked data or stay out of this thread. This is a health crisis - perpetuating unsubstantiated information can kill people.
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Old 03-23-20, 06:21 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Most of those 100+ people already had some other serious, potentially fatal comorbidity.

If a random jetliner crashed every day, but those same people would have died in car crashes anyway, then no, I wouldn't recommend doing anything.

I never said this is "no big deal." What I did say is that most of these deaths are happening in old, sick people who would have died soon anyway.
Well, dang. So your attitude is "It sucks that your lung got damaged in December, Nick. But it doesn't affect me."

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
Of course this isn't China, but they could have made it a much stricter quarantine by strictly defining what can be left open (which is a complaint some people had). I don't think they wanted to do that, they wanted to shut down anywhere that large crowds could gather and then leave it to common sense to say what should be left open, and when that didn't work (ie: Gamestop), they made it stricter. Of course they weren't going to close down grocery stores, though.
China did a full stay-at-home quarantine in Wuhan by having the Army patrol the streets. I'm not sure if the US Army has enough troops to do that, and I'm not sure if our soldiers would be willing to shoot Americans for leaving their apartment buildings.
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Old 03-24-20, 11:03 AM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post

I never said this is "no big deal." What I did say is that most of these deaths are happening in old, sick people who would have died soon anyway.
Should we just start executing people who are old and sick? They're gonna die anyway, why even waste an aspirin on them?

Do you think about the horrible things you write before you write them?
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Old 03-24-20, 01:05 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by chowderhead View Post
We are not just talking about people dying from the disease that may well have died anyways. There are LOTS of people that will require hospitalization and ICUs that may survive. We do not want to get into a situation like Italy where they need to triage the older patients and leave them to treat the younger patients.
The CDC is reporting that around 40% of the case requiring hospitalization are from patients 20-54 years old.
https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/mar/2...ortion-us-cov/
This was also seen in South Korea.
I agree that the US has a lot of people with preexisting conditions such as high blood pressure (highest risk), (along with age), obesity, smoking, heart disease. It is important now that we do not overwhelm the medical system as they are pleading for more PPEs and ventilators and time to prepare for the onslaught and TESTS for the front line health providers. We need to give these people, as much time to prepare for what is coming.

Those are good points, especially the bolded part.

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Old 03-24-20, 01:07 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
Sorry grundle, but I would implore you to stop posting statements like this in this thread that aren't backed up with linked data. And you should start responding to the people that are refuting your position with linked data or stay out of this thread. This is a health crisis - perpetuating unsubstantiated information can kill people.

https://www.businessinsider.com/most...-report-2020-3



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Old 03-24-20, 01:10 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
Well, dang. So your attitude is "It sucks that your lung got damaged in December, Nick. But it doesn't affect me."

What I'm saying is that if they are predicting a certain number of deaths from COVID-19, they have to figure out if these are additional deaths on top of what would have already happened, or the same people would have died anyway but dying from something different. I am not making any kind of personal attack against you or anyone else.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:14 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
100% of all people end up dying eventually ... why bother?



​​​​​​​


Yes, everyone dies eventually anyway.

But if an 85-year-old was already in a nursing home dying from stage 4 cancer, and they contract and die from COVID-19, that's not the same thing as an otherwise healthy 20-year-old dying from COVID-19.

Shutting down the economy like this could lead to increased deaths from suicide and drug overdoses. It might even cause a net increase in the number of deaths. The "cure" should never be worse than the disease.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:17 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I have never used the ignore feature, but am seriously considering it now.

Why does this "Non-Political" thread even exist? It was supposed to be for information purposes but it's descended into some dystopian hellhole where folks can apparently weigh in on whose lives are worth saving and whose aren't.
______________________________________________________________________

I'm not trying to pick who lives and who dies. What I am trying to do is the minimize the total number of years of human life that is lost. I don't understand why you and others here seem to have such problem with that. And just because I'm expressing an idea that might be new to you does not mean that I am a troll.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:21 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Yeah, this is absolutely true.

If an independently-owned coffee shop or bookstore has to shut down for two weeks or two months or however long this lasts, then they aren't going to be able to offer their employees paid leave because without the cash flow of the business, they literally do not have money to do it. They're in the same boat as their employees who can't make the rent. Unless the owner has deep pockets, like an athlete or actor.
I agree with you.

And to be clear for anyone who might disagree, this is not about "How can you care about money when lives are at stake"? The potential for lost lives due to economic upheaval is very real.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:22 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I'm not trying to pick who lives and who dies. What I am trying to do is the minimize the total number of years of human life that is lost. I don't understand why you and others here seem to have such problem with that. And just because I'm expressing an idea that might be new to you does not mean that I am a troll.
Keyboard warrior vs a real life doctor... hmmm....
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Old 03-24-20, 01:27 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
i hope you have enough work to keep yourself and your workers busy until this blows over. I am the biggest admirer of people in construction. I like to do DIY work but often make a big mess and need the pros to come in to rescue. They take 10 minutes to fix what I can't do in 5 hours (and that includes the time to undo my mistake and laugh ).

This is a very interesting comment.

On the one hand, someone might say the professional was getting paid too much, because he only worked for 10 minutes.

But that's really the wrong way of looking at it. The accurate way of looking at it is that the professional saved you 5 hours (or even more) of your own time.

This is the result of living in an advanced technological society with a very high degree of specialization.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:34 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Dr. Mantle View Post
Should we just start executing people who are old and sick? They're gonna die anyway, why even waste an aspirin on them?

Do you think about the horrible things you write before you write them?

No, we should not execute anyone.

I am trying to minimize the number of years of human life that gets lost. There is nothing "horrible" about that.

If anything, what's "horrible" is to ignore the huge amount of human suffering, including possible increases in suicide and drug overdoes, that could result from shutting so many things down.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:36 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I know some forum members post sociopathic nonsense, but may I kindly suggest the rest of us... not... do that. It only encourages them.

Me wanting to minimize the number of lost years of human life is not "sociopathic."

If anything, ignoring the damage that gets caused by shutting down the economy, such as increased deaths from suicide and drug overdoses, is "sociopathic."
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Old 03-24-20, 01:38 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
No, we should not execute anyone.

I am trying to minimize the number of years of human life that gets lost. There is nothing "horrible" about that.

If anything, what's "horrible" is to ignore the huge amount of human suffering, including possible increases in suicide and drug overdoes, that could result from shutting so many things down.
You aren’t doing shit. You’re typing on a keyboard in a DVD forum.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:40 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
That was Italy's approach.

If the number of people who need ventilators is larger than the number of ventilators, then someone will have to decide who does or does not get them. That's a fact of reality. And there's nothing "sociopathic" about it.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:40 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Try again. That data DOES NOT back up your claim that "most of these deaths are happening in old, sick people who would have died soon anyway." All that data shows is that a higher percentage of people in older age brackets who get Coronavirus die from it. It does not show what percentage of the total Coronavirus deaths are "old" nor does it offer any data on what percentage of the people in the 65+ age groups were "sick people who would have died soon anyway." Many people who died in the 65-84 age groups may have otherwise lived another 10 years or more, for all you know. I'll say it again: stop making claims that aren't backed up with data and I'll add: stop posting data that doesn't align to your claims. You should give up and leave this thread, in my opinion.

Last edited by kefrank; 03-24-20 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:45 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I don't understand why you and others here seem to have such problem with that. And just because I'm expressing an idea that might be new to you does not mean that I am a troll.

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Old 03-24-20, 01:45 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
Everyone... just bail on this thread. Let grundle talk to himself.
Worth repeating.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:00 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I'm not trying to pick who lives and who dies. What I am trying to do is the minimize the total number of years of human life that is lost. I don't understand why you and others here seem to have such problem with that. And just because I'm expressing an idea that might be new to you does not mean that I am a troll.
I'm sure you are on board with keeping the "shelter in place", until we flatten the curve, and also make sure there are enough ICU beds, before we relax restrictions, right? That would mean getting R < 1 and keeping it there. Otherwise society as we know it will be screwed and not just the economy.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:20 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I think you need to wrap your head around "avoidable causes of death vs unavoidable causes". COVID-19 is (ideally) and avoidable cause of death, so let's try our best to avoid it.

I agree with you.

Suicide and drug overdoses are also avoidable causes of death.

What I want is to minimize the total number of humans years of life that gets lost. Maybe shutting down the economy will achieve that goal. Maybe keeping the economy running would achieve that goal.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:25 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
Keyboard warrior vs a real life doctor... hmmm....
Real life doctors in Italy are deciding who gets ventilators and who does not. It's not a pleasant choice to have to make. But it's reality, because the number of people who need ventilators is larger than the number of ventilators. They have decided to allocate ventilators based on the ages of the patients. Younger patients get priority over older patients. Just like me (a keyboard warrior), these real life doctors want to minimize the number of years of human life that gets lots.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:27 PM
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Re: COVID-19 NON-POLITICAL Thread

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
If the number of people who need ventilators is larger than the number of ventilators, then someone will have to decide who does or does not get them. That's a fact of reality. And there's nothing "sociopathic" about it.
Eeny meeny miny moe. Is it Johnny or Grundle who will go? You see how that works. Do you want to be a 50/50er? Would you want someone you love to be in that position?
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