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Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

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Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Old 10-09-19, 02:51 AM
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Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

This is crazy.

This is what we get for paying all those dam taxes they charge us.

If you miss my posts and comments you will know the reason

PG&E Corp., the California utility giant forced into bankruptcy by two years of devastating wildfires, is orchestrating the biggest planned blackout yet to keep power lines from sparking more blazes.PG&E will start cutting electricity to almost 800,000 customers across Northern California, including parts of Napa Valley, Oakland and Berkeley. Shutoffs are set to begin just after midnight local time Wednesday -- when hot, dry winds are forecast to pick up speed -- and may last several days.

Edison International also warned it may cut power to about 106,260 Southern California customers.Altogether, an estimated 2.7 million people may be affected, based on city estimates and the average size of a U.S. household. The city of San Francisco was outside of the shutoff zone as of Tuesday.Never before has a utility planned such a widespread shutoff affecting so many customers at once to avoid a wildfire in California.


It’s the latest testament to how climate change-driven extreme weather is forcing people and businesses alike to adapt. This week’s outage will mark the first time PG&E has coordinated a blackout in a major metropolitan area. Previous ones involved rural areas prone to wildfires.The planned shutoff appears to spare most of Silicon Valley’s big tech operations. Mountain View, Santa Clara and most of San Jose were outside of PG&E’s affected zones as of late Tuesday morning. A detailed map posted on PG&E’s website also showed Tesla Inc.’s Fremont factory lying outside the zones. More areas, including the affluent county of Marin, were added to the zones at risk of cutoffs late Tuesday.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pg-e-...195030991.html


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Old 10-09-19, 03:51 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Power went out here in Auburn,ca about 12:30 am. Still have a house in Oregon, but I'm going to buy a generator now.
I'll bitch about PG&E latter.

Last edited by JoeySeven; 10-09-19 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:34 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Adding another reason to leave the state for good. Getting raped by power companies' exhorbitant power rates, who turn off power because they can't face their own liabilities, and getting blamed by those companies, as if they're doing us some grand favor by gracing us with the favor of providing what should be a cheap and subsidized service!

Bollocks!
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Old 10-09-19, 05:08 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Adding another reason to leave the state for good.
Shit or get off the pot.
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Old 10-09-19, 05:48 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Go solar!

Use paper straws!

Carpool!
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Old 10-09-19, 06:17 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Didn't Enron do this shit back in 2001 and now it is happening again in 2019?
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Old 10-09-19, 06:27 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Go solar!

Use paper straws!

Carpool!

High-Speed Rail!
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Old 10-09-19, 06:40 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by JeffTheAlpaca View Post
Didn't Enron do this shit back in 2001 and now it is happening again in 2019?
Enron certainly got blamed for it.

But Enron is in Texas, not California.

Back when blaming Enron for California's electricity shortages was a current event, California had gone more than a decade without building any new major (500 MW or more) power plants. The retail price of electricity was also set too low, so people had no financial incentive to conserve. Also, long term contracts for wholesale electricity were banned, so utilities had to pay high, on the spot wholesale prices, but were not allowed to pass these higher prices on to their customers.

As for the current situation with the recent fires in California, there has been a lot of opposition to clearing out the excess, old, dead trees, brush, and other plant growth that is fueling the current and recent fires. Meanwhile, over here in the eastern U.S., it is a regular and common practice to remove such excess fuel in order to prevent these kinds of massive fires. For whatever reason, California has decided to do the exact opposite of proper forest management.

Also, California has been talking about shutting down its last few remaining nuclear plants. If and when this happens, and it causes more shortages, I wonder if California will again try to blame it on Texas.
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Old 10-09-19, 07:34 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

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Old 10-09-19, 08:52 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

It should be good business for Tesla whole-house batteries.
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Old 10-09-19, 09:24 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

This has nothing to do with a lack of power supply. It has to do with the lawsuits that were allowed to go through to the utilities due to the fires that were caused. While people cheered the huge lawsuits the power companies warned that they can only inspect all their power connections so often and higher/stronger winds due to climate change make things even more difficult so they are turning off power to avoid causing more fires and .. more lawsuits.
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Old 10-09-19, 09:34 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

It’s not about climate change or more wind. It’s about bad equipment that they can’t service.

And this.

As for the current situation with the recent fires in California, there has been a lot of opposition to clearing out the excess, old, dead trees, brush, and other plant growth that is fueling the current and recent fires. Meanwhile, over here in the eastern U.S., it is a regular and common practice to remove such excess fuel in order to prevent these kinds of massive fires. For whatever reason, California has decided to do the exact opposite of proper forest management.
This is An almost 100 year old problem. We haven’t properly managed our forests since the 1930’s.
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Old 10-09-19, 09:43 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

What's the source of that quote?

The closest I could find was an editorial in the Sacramento Bee saying that the Trump administration is pushing for clear cutting pristine forest under the cover of saying they're thinning trees for wildfire prevention.

Here in New Mexico, we have the space for prescribed burns. Can they even do that in California?
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Old 10-09-19, 10:12 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Does that quote relate to the old "rake the forest" meme?
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Old 10-09-19, 10:50 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

I’m quoting grundle from just above me.

California does do prescribed burns, but they’re not enough. The prescribed burns we do are not enough to keep up with the near century of fire suppression.

You see there used to be a philosophy of total suppression

From Wikipedia

Before the middle of the 20th century, most forest managers believed that fires should be suppressed at all times.[4] By 1935, the U.S. Forest Service's fire management policy stipulated that all wildfires were to be suppressed by 10 am the morning after they were first spotted.[5] Fire fighting crews were established throughout public lands, and generally staffed by young men during fire seasons. By 1940, firefighters known as smokejumpers would parachute out of airplanes to extinguish flames in remote locations. By the beginning of World War II, over 8,000 fire lookout towers had been constructed in the United States. Though many have been torn down due to increased use of airplanes for fire spotting, three are still used each year in Yellowstone.[6]
[7] Firefighting efforts were highly successful, with the area burned by wildfires reduced from an annual average of 30,000,000 acres (120,000 km2) during the 1930s, to between 2,000,000 acres (8,100 km2) and 5,000,000 acres (20,000 km2) by the 1960s.[4] The need for lumber during World War II was high and fires that destroyed timberland were deemed unacceptable. In 1944, the U.S. Forest Service developed an ad campaign to help educate the public that all fires were detrimental, using a cartoon black bear named Smokey Bear. This iconic firefighting bear can still be seen on posters with the catchphrase "Only you can prevent forest fires".[8]
[9] Early posters of Smokey Bear misled the public into believing that western wildfires were predominantly human-caused. In Yellowstone, human-caused fires average between 6 and 10 annually, while 35 wildfires are ignited by lightning.[7]
[10]

Some researchers, as well as some timber companies and private citizens, understood that fire was a natural state of affairs in many ecosystems. Fire would help clean out the understory and dead plant matter, allowing economically important tree species to grow with less competition for nutrients. Native Americans would often burn woodlands to reduce overgrowth and increase grasslands for large prey animals such as bison and elk.[11]

When the U.S. Forest Service was established in 1905, it became the primary task of the Forest Service to suppress all fires on the forest reserves it administered. In 1916, the National Park Service was established and took over park management from the Army. Following the Forest Service approach, fire suppression became the only fire policy and remained in the national parks for the next five decades. Some foresters questioned the economic logic of such suppression efforts. However, the extensive fires of 1910 solidified the Forest Service as the premier fire control organization and fire suppression remained the only fire policy for all federal land management agencies until the late 1960s.[12]

Complete fire suppression was the objective, even though these early efforts were less than successful until the advent of vehicles, equipment, and roads (see Fire trail) during the 1940s.[12] As early as 1924, environmentalist Aldo Leopold argued that wildfires were beneficial to ecosystems, and were necessary for the natural propagation of numerous tree and plant species. Over the next 40 years, increasing numbers of foresters and ecologistsconcurred about the benefits of wildfire to ecosystems. Some managers allowed low intensity fires to spread in remote areas unless they threatened valuable resources or facilities, but by 1934 a policy of extinguishing all fires by 10:00 am of the next burning period was implemented.[1]
[13] This resulted in the buildup of fuels in some ecosystems such as ponderosa pine and Douglas fir forests.[12]


Changes to policyEdit

The policy began to be questioned in the 1960s, when it was realized that no new giant sequoia had grown in the forests of California, because fire is an essential part of their life cycle.[14] In 1962, Secretary of the Interior
Stewart Udall assembled a Special Advisory Board on Wildlife Management to look into wildlife management problems in the national parks. This Advisory Board wrote what is now referred to as the Leopold Report, named after its chair, zoologist and conservationist A. Starker Leopold, which did not confine its report to wildlife, but took the broader ecological view that parks should be managed as ecosystems. The passage of the 1964 Wilderness Act encouraged the allowance of natural processes to occur, including fire.[13]Afterwards, the National Park Service changed its policy in 1968 to recognize fire as an ecological process. Fires were to be allowed to run their courses as long as they could be contained within fire management units and accomplished approved management objectives. Several parks established fire use programs, and policies were gradually changed from fire control to fire management. The Forest Service enacted similar measures in 1974 by changing its policy from fire control to fire management, allowing lightning fires to burn in wilderness areas. This included both naturally caused fire and intentional prescribed fire.[1] In 1978, the Forest Service abandoned the 10:00 am policy in favor of a new policy that encouraged the use of wildland fire by prescription.[1]
[13]

Three events between 1978 and 1988 precipitated a major fire use policy review in 1989: the Ouzel fire in Rocky Mountain National Park, the Yellowstone fires of 1988 in and around Yellowstone National Park, and the Canyon Creek fire in the Bob Marshall Wilderness on the Lewis and Clark National Forest. In all three cases, monitored fires burned until they threatened developed areas. While none of the Yellowstone fires of 1988 were caused by controlled burns, later investigations proved the fire use policy was appropriate, though needing strengthening and improvement.[13]

The Secretaries of Agriculture and the Interior convened a fire policy review team to evaluate the National Park Service and Forest Service wilderness fire policies. The team reaffirmed the fundamental importance of fire’s natural role but recommended that fire management plans be strengthened by establishing clear decision criteria and accountability, and that interagency cooperation be improved. Wildland fire use programs restarted slowly after the 1989 review. Eventually the Forest Service and National Park Service programs began to grow as the number of fires and area burned increased.[1]


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Old 10-09-19, 10:53 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Total suppression for 60+ years led to a tremendous build up of dead forest fire fuel. Indians used to let the fires burn.
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Old 10-09-19, 10:57 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

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Old 10-09-19, 11:01 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

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Old 10-09-19, 11:08 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Interesting article from a while ago...

[PushBack] Now They Have Burned Los Alamos
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Old 10-09-19, 11:10 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

https://treesource.org/news/lands/fo...george-gruell/

The problem we have in California is that prescribed burns

1) Violate our air quality laws
2) Annoy residents

Even though the burns are making mountain residents safer I still frequently read opinions of folks in the mountain towns that they don’t want prescribed burns because the smokey air ruins their summer.
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Old 10-09-19, 11:15 AM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by X View Post
Interesting article from a while ago...

[PushBack] Now They Have Burned Los Alamos
Yeah. The problem is that you canít quit cold turkey. The philosophy of total suppression led to so much fuel building up that when you try to go back to the natural order of things the fires go totally out of control.
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Old 10-09-19, 12:15 PM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by X View Post
Interesting article from a while ago...

[PushBack] Now They Have Burned Los Alamos
Part of science is making predictions and then checking if the predictions are borne out.

The present government policies on forest management will guarantee that there will be many more Yellowstones in the next three to five years. The next ones will likely be highly populated areas such as the Tahoe Basin where the forest around the lake is clogged with tens of thousands of dead trees due to the recent seven-year drought. Hundreds if not thousands of homes and businesses will be destroyed here and in other dry forested areas in the west when lightning fires are allowed to burn—or stupid summertime “controlled burns” deliberately set by government agents get out of hand.
I would say the predictions were not true.

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post


Yeah. The problem is that you can’t quit cold turkey. The philosophy of total suppression led to so much fuel building up that when you try to go back to the natural order of things the fires go totally out of control.


We are definitely in a hole, and have to dig our way out. But I think that total suppression has not been doctrine for a good twenty years. That 1999 article is arguing that the controlled burns are wrong ("insane") and that allowing lumber companies harvest trees is the correct solution. By then no one was in favor of total suppression.
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Old 10-09-19, 01:29 PM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

The health of the West's forests is a complex problem. Neither the global warming alarmists nor the log-it-and-graze-it crowd shouting from the peanut forum seem to have a firm grasp on the cause and solution. Our forests are stressed from decades of logging, lack of management given to the replanted forests, decades of heavy-handed fire suppression, and a warmer climate.

The people who are saying we need to thin out the dead brush and overgrown trees are partially correct (ignoring Trump's silly raking comment). Many of the second- and third-growth forests are a mess, but it's not economically feasible to thin them on a significant scale. It's usually not profitable for lumber companies to thin a forest, and the Forest Service doesn't have the budget to do much more than a portion of the needed prescribed burns, which requires a lot of manpower to perform safely.

Last edited by funkyryno; 10-09-19 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 10-09-19, 02:09 PM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Enron certainly got blamed for it.

But Enron is in Texas, not California.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 10-09-19, 02:13 PM
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Re: Millions of Californians Will Go Dark in Biggest Fire Outage Yet

Originally Posted by funkyryno View Post
The health of the West's forests is a complex problem. Neither the global warming alarmists nor the log-it-and-graze-it crowd shouting from the peanut forum seem to have a firm grasp on the cause and solution. Our forests are stressed from decades of logging, lack of management given to the replanted forests, decades of heavy-handed fire suppression, and a warmer climate.
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