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Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Old 01-09-19, 01:55 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
The title was disgusting, wasn't it?
I had to take a shower the first time I saw it in the thread listing.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:00 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
If the perp ultimately proves to be a unapproved visitor, I agree this is questionable security. However, if the father ends up being a male staff member who would have otherwise at least occasionally had work-related access to the patient's room, I don't really see this as a reasonable security problem. More like a human resources problem. Even in post-surgical wards with very active monitoring of patient health, in the middle of the night a nurse might stop by every couple of hours tops. That has certainly been my experience in hospital stays. For someone who is in a stable vegetative state (for ten years no less), it is pretty reasonable there is not a lot of active supervision of her room. That leaves ample opportunity for some orderly to sneak in and do the deed. Ultimately, the probably only needed a few minutes more likely than not. No reasonable (as in due care/due diligence) level of security is going to prevent that.
To not notice a woman for 9 months and her physical changes, is something of a concern. You're right, let's suppose a nurse drops by a few hours, a few times a day. And they all didn't notice this woman's changes?
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Old 01-09-19, 02:11 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Interesting legal angle here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...tative-n956461



I am assuming that this alleged search warrant is real and not a ruse to flush the game, so to speak (which I suspect that it is). That assumption made, and assuming that the number of employees affected by this warrant are more than a few, I don't for the life of me see how this is a legal search warrant. You cannot just do a DNA sweep with a search warrant. A search warrant requires probable cause (i.e., "more likely than not") and requires particularity of the place to be searched. Let's assume there were 10 male employees. By definition, they do not have probable cause that any one of those 10 men is the rapist. Searching a database is one thing, but compelling DNA samples from 10 men when it is an undeniable fact that at least 90% of the men are not the father is just a power that the police should not have.
It's along the lines of evidence leading to other evidence. My guess is the search warrant is not the end all, and the DNA submissions are simply a way to RULE OUT employees at that facility. It's obvious the crime happened...at the facility, so the facility is where the search warrant is issued. Anyone there is subject to the warrant. Also, my guess is we have a 4th Amendment precedent, which says this is NOT unreasonable search methodology.

Probable Cause? Sure. I'd say since the crime happened at that facility, the authorities have probable cause to "search" male employees there, based on their other investigations.

However...the DNA samples that rule out any male suspects...need to be destroyed.

They have the male DNA evidence. Now, they are looking for a match to that DNA. Probable cause is that it is/was an employee at the facility, but since DNA is the only way to identify the suspect because nobody actually saw the incident happen (nor saw the suspect possibly--even if they did see the suspect in the room they'd have to prove he impregnated the woman and thus, DNA is needed anyway)...a DNA Search Warrant (John Doe DNA Warrant) is being issued at the facility.

The attorneys for Hacienda, who state it is against Federal Law, imo, are wrong. If this incident happened BEYOND the statute of limitations for the crime being sought...then we'd have something. But this happened less than a year ago, so I'm pretty sure no SoL would even be close due to the nature of this crime. There is sufficient precedent to show PC, 4th Amendment and other justifications. Hacienda is just being an asshole, and I would guess their own employment TOS, mandates random drug testing, which this is a form of. And somebody needs to educated this shithole of a company by shutting the entire place down, and relocating all patients. These people are at risk and this company knows it.

P.S. Added to say that nobody should force anyone to a "sample" such as random drug sampling, etc., but what I would say, is that it could be inferred as an employment breach of terms (i.e., grounds for termination). Hacienda should advise their employees who are to submit a sample, to get an attorney if they are resistant and want more legal representation on this, however, to just tell their employees to not do it, is not responsible. Hacienda should provide attorneys for all of these employees (or tell the employees if they want an attorney to find one and the legal fees will be paid--this is ideal), and each employee will have varying legal needs so having just one or two attorneys won't cut it. Hacienda is gonna have to fork out some cash if they want to appear like a responsible company--if they ever can.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 01-09-19 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:26 PM
  #29  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Whoever changed the thread title...I salute you.
Clickbait thread titles are really annoying and unnecessary.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:29 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Probable Cause? Sure. I'd say since the crime happened at that facility, the authorities have probable cause to "search" male employees there, based on their other investigations.
Oh, they undoubtedly have probable cause that a crime was committed and they have probable cause that a crime was committed at that facility and in that patient's room. However, they simply do not have probable cause that any individual employee committed the crime. Therefore, a search warrant that compels a DNA sample from any individual employee with no other evidence than they are male and that they work there is not valid and would nor, or at least should not, survive a court challenge. Getting some state magistrate to sign a search warrant is a hell of a lot easier than defending the legal soundness of the warrant in court later. And when it does get thrown out, their entire case against the person will likely go bye-bye.

Empowering the police to conduct compulsory DNA sweeps based on nothing more the demographic and scant circumstantial data is not a power we should have. Again, I am hoping that this is merely a ruse or, alternatively, that the warrant merely allows them to try and collect DNA evidence (hairs from an employee's hair brush, for example) from within the facility rather than directly from the employees.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:47 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Well, I will agree, I am cautious on any agency having in their possession, DNA samples (which is why I think these companies that do it with all these smiley commercials are a fraud and whoever submits their dna to them, put themselves at risk and one day, we'll find out those samples were stolen and just disappeared, etc.). Which is why I would recommend all individuals who are asked to submit DNA...to get a lawyer (hopefully a good one), and to make sure those samples are destroyed (which is still based on a trust legality but would have confirmation by the lab tech who destroyed the samples).

They'll need direct submission samples to prevent any errors. They have the suspect samples, now they just need direct samples for a potential match. They may not get it. They guy may have already quit or was fired. They guy might have a criminal record and may have a dna sample already on his file.

But yeah, I'd like to take a look at this warrant. Hopefully, it is legally sound or the suspect may go free, and Hacienda wipes it's hands and pretends nothing happened and settles out of court with the family and goes onto being the shithole healthcare facility it seems to be.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 01-09-19 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 01-09-19, 04:36 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Which is why I would recommend all individuals who are asked to submit DNA...to get a lawyer (hopefully a good one)
Sage advice.

They'll need direct submission samples to prevent any errors. They have the suspect samples, now they just need direct samples for a potential match. They may not get it. They guy may have already quit or was fired. They guy might have a criminal record and may have a dna sample already on his file.
True, but if I have a warrant that allows me to pull DNA off of a comb or a toothbrush in some employee's locker or off of the Diet Coke can I just watched him toss in the bin and then get a match, I now have all the PC I need to them actually compel a buccal swab of the employee. This I have no legal problem with at all.

If it turns out that the baddie has a criminal record, especially one that should have prevented Hacienda Healthcare from hiring him, the company has even more to worry about.
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Old 01-09-19, 04:54 PM
  #33  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

I read a story today that a mother who has a 22 year old daughter in the same facility (the girl is somewhat responsive but still recovering from a traumatic brain injury) is now staying with her in the room 24/7 (with a note on the door saying no male workers allowed in) while she works on hopefully getting her transferred. She and some of the other patients' families are saying the staff is being far from helpful right now. What a mess.
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Old 01-09-19, 10:24 PM
  #34  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Instead of quoting a bunch of things, I'm just going to break my thoughts into two lines of discussion ...

THE WARRANT -- That is the classic definition of a legal fishing expedition. I really hope they do not go through with it, as the ramification could be the perpetrator walking away on a technicality. You can argue that it is narrowed down to ten people ... but that's not true. As somebody else mentioned, you don't even know that it was an employee. Even if you did, the warrant is still illegal. There is no magic number that excuses violating people's Constitutional rights. You must have probably cause for a specific suspect, not probably cause that a crime occurred and here is a list of possibilities.

THE PREGNANCY -- At first I wondered the same thing: how did nobody notice? If you think about it, it makes sense though. This was not a normal pregnant woman who is on her feet and eating meals and snacks for two. First, I imagine she was tube fed on a strict diet regiment. There probably was not enough sustenance for the fetus to grow as a normal fetus would. I am imagining the baby was terribly underweight when born. Second, gravity. The woman was NEVER up on her feet where the child would be "pulled into her belly" naturally. She was flat on her back almost 100% of the time which would pull the baby away from the traditional position. Lastly, and this is kind of tied back to my first point, some women just don't show. My wife was like that with our first child. Our daughter was born healthy and fine (maybe even a little overweight), but you wouldn't have necessarily known my wife was pregnant by looking at her (and no, she wasn't fat to start with -- quite the contrary). If you think about it, it is actually very reasonable that nobody would have noticed.
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Old 01-09-19, 10:33 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by cultshock View Post
I read a story today that a mother who has a 22 year old daughter in the same facility (the girl is somewhat responsive but still recovering from a traumatic brain injury) is now staying with her in the room 24/7 (with a note on the door saying no male workers allowed in) while she works on hopefully getting her transferred. She and some of the other patients' families are saying the staff is being far from helpful right now. What a mess.
That is sad, but kudos for the woman for protecting her daughter. The fact that the staff is being "far from helpful" right now is not surprising at all. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to say that they are deliberately being stubborn (unlike management). I'm sure those employees are terrified right now. I would say there is a very real possibility that the place will be shut down. Anytime you have any regulatory agency in a nursing home, the staff get real nervous. Amplify that into a criminal investigation -- a very embarrassing criminal investigation -- and the staff is not going to go out of their way to do anything other than crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s.
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Old 01-10-19, 12:13 AM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
THE PREGNANCY -- At first I wondered the same thing: how did nobody notice? If you think about it, it makes sense though. This was not a normal pregnant woman who is on her feet and eating meals and snacks for two. First, I imagine she was tube fed on a strict diet regiment. There probably was not enough sustenance for the fetus to grow as a normal fetus would. I am imagining the baby was terribly underweight when born. Second, gravity. The woman was NEVER up on her feet where the child would be "pulled into her belly" naturally. She was flat on her back almost 100% of the time which would pull the baby away from the traditional position. Lastly, and this is kind of tied back to my first point, some women just don't show. My wife was like that with our first child. Our daughter was born healthy and fine (maybe even a little overweight), but you wouldn't have necessarily known my wife was pregnant by looking at her (and no, she wasn't fat to start with -- quite the contrary). If you think about it, it is actually very reasonable that nobody would have noticed.
How do we know if the baby was even born live? Does the article even say? It could be calcified and / or stillborn for all we know! I fail to see how a normal baby could even have developed through all this mess. Maybe that's why nobody noticed.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:38 AM
  #37  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by whotony View Post
What was the original title?
Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Just "Disgusting".
I probably would have titled it “Girlfriend in a Coma.”

I know, it’s serious...



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Old 01-10-19, 10:48 AM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
THE PREGNANCY -- At first I wondered the same thing: how did nobody notice? If you think about it, it makes sense though. This was not a normal pregnant woman who is on her feet and eating meals and snacks for two. First, I imagine she was tube fed on a strict diet regiment. There probably was not enough sustenance for the fetus to grow as a normal fetus would. I am imagining the baby was terribly underweight when born. Second, gravity. The woman was NEVER up on her feet where the child would be "pulled into her belly" naturally. She was flat on her back almost 100% of the time which would pull the baby away from the traditional position. Lastly, and this is kind of tied back to my first point, some women just don't show. My wife was like that with our first child. Our daughter was born healthy and fine (maybe even a little overweight), but you wouldn't have necessarily known my wife was pregnant by looking at her (and no, she wasn't fat to start with -- quite the contrary). If you think about it, it is actually very reasonable that nobody would have noticed.
The only slight tweak I would make here is that PVS patients, like coma patients, are actually moved around quite a bit for physical therapy (of sorts), preventing bedsores, etc. There would probably be multiple instances during her pregnancy where she was on her side or even "sitting up". That said, I still agree. It is seems hardly beyond the realm of reasonable possibility that reasonably diligent staff would have failed to notice the pregnancy.

That said, since they are cleaning regularly, there should have at least been the possibility that someone would have noticed the seminal discharge. Its not like her catheter would catch that, or would it? I've admittedly never seen a womens catheter. Of course, the person whose job it is to do this could be the bad guy, but you would think that the facility would only allow female staff to do that kind of work.
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Old 01-10-19, 11:14 AM
  #39  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
That is sad, but kudos for the woman for protecting her daughter. The fact that the staff is being "far from helpful" right now is not surprising at all. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to say that they are deliberately being stubborn (unlike management). I'm sure those employees are terrified right now. I would say there is a very real possibility that the place will be shut down. Anytime you have any regulatory agency in a nursing home, the staff get real nervous. Amplify that into a criminal investigation -- a very embarrassing criminal investigation -- and the staff is not going to go out of their way to do anything other than crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s.
Good point, I'm sure you are correct on that. Also, your explanation regarding the pregnancy makes sense too, this wasn't a normal pregnancy in anyway.

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post

I probably would have titled it “Girlfriend in a Coma.”

I know, it’s serious...
But I don't really think she'll pull through.
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Old 01-10-19, 11:35 AM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
The only slight tweak I would make here is that PVS patients, like coma patients, are actually moved around quite a bit for physical therapy (of sorts), preventing bedsores, etc. There would probably be multiple instances during her pregnancy where she was on her side or even "sitting up". That said, I still agree. It is seems hardly beyond the realm of reasonable possibility that reasonably diligent staff would have failed to notice the pregnancy.

That said, since they are cleaning regularly, there should have at least been the possibility that someone would have noticed the seminal discharge. Its not like her catheter would catch that, or would it? I've admittedly never seen a womens catheter. Of course, the person whose job it is to do this could be the bad guy, but you would think that the facility would only allow female staff to do that kind of work.
This raises another question... Would a woman in this state continue to have menstrual cycles? Presumably so, especially since she was able to become pregnant. In that case, wouldn't the lack of her regular cycle get their attention?
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Old 01-10-19, 12:11 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by andicus View Post
This raises another question... Would a woman in this state continue to have menstrual cycles? Presumably so, especially since she was able to become pregnant. In that case, wouldn't the lack of her regular cycle get their attention?
Another good point. Even if her monthly discharge is less because of her lack of physical activity, you would think there would be something.

There was another news story about this I saw this morning that said that she receives an annual full medical exam and that her last one was 8 1/2 months ago. So even if she were pregnant at the time, she would have been within the first month or so and not likely to be detected without a specific pregnancy test.
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Old 01-10-19, 02:14 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Interesting legal angle here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...tative-n956461



I am assuming that this alleged search warrant is real and not a ruse to flush the game, so to speak (which I suspect that it is). That assumption made, and assuming that the number of employees affected by this warrant are more than a few, I don't for the life of me see how this is a legal search warrant. You cannot just do a DNA sweep with a search warrant. A search warrant requires probable cause (i.e., "more likely than not") and requires particularity of the place to be searched. Let's assume there were 10 male employees. By definition, they do not have probable cause that any one of those 10 men is the rapist. Searching a database is one thing, but compelling DNA samples from 10 men when it is an undeniable fact that at least 90% of the men are not the father is just a power that the police should not have.
I would say they don't have probable cause either, as they don't know if the rape was from a staff member or a visitor. If they aren't sure, than they should require DNA samples from any male that has been in the building during that time period; staff, patients, visitors, repairmen, government inspectors, etc. It would seem you could eliminate some men based on the race of the woman and the child and the person you want to check. If the woman is caucasian and the baby is black, you could more than likely eliminate caucasian staff members, etc.
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Old 01-10-19, 03:41 PM
  #43  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Came here for the title change.
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Old 01-11-19, 12:35 AM
  #44  
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
How do we know if the baby was even born live? Does the article even say? It could be calcified and / or stillborn for all we know! I fail to see how a normal baby could even have developed through all this mess. Maybe that's why nobody noticed.
Well ... that is true. The article doesn't say one way or the other. Interesting possible wrinkle?
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Old 01-11-19, 08:42 AM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

This is horrible... I kinda don't want to know more details. But I hope they find the guilty party and charge them
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Old 01-11-19, 01:59 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

If the child was in fact alive, the father needs to be paying child support until the kid is 18.
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Old 01-11-19, 02:02 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Update on the birth status--child was alive

https://www.azfamily.com/news/woman-...d53869faf.html

“How were they alerted to the fact that she was going into labor?” asked reporter Briana Whitney.

“From what I’ve been told she was moaning. And they didn’t know what was wrong with her,” the source said.

Arizona's Family also learned that the baby is alive.

“There was a nurse that was there, and from what I’ve heard she’s the one that delivered the baby,” the woman said.

“What do we know about the baby?” asked Whitney.

“From what I know the baby is alive, and the baby is healthy,” she said.

The source says the patient required around-the-clock care and many would have access to her room.

“She had no way to defend herself in this sort of situation?” asked Whitney.

“No. None whatsoever. Not even able to communicate the fact that she was pregnant,” she said.
If you ask me, many of the staff appear to have less brain functionality than this near-drowning victim.
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Old 01-11-19, 02:17 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Wow. I don't know how possible it is in this case, but it would be horrifying if although unable to communicate she was fully aware of what was happening, the rape itself, and maybe even the pregnancy in the later stages (e.g. feeling a baby moving around inside her). Damn!
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Old 01-11-19, 07:29 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
How sad, I had hoped you had dropped it. As much as I enjoy a feisty debate, I don't like it much when things get mean-spirited. Oh well...



Which was:



Did you elaborate on your views? Nope, just this. Is this is what you call disagreeing? One minute later you (jokingly, I can only hope) suggested that I was a rapist. Without revealing too much about my personal life, I have very good reason for being offended when someone insinuates that I am a rape apologist. This is doubly true when the comment is based on a careless out of context misstatement of what I was saying to begin with. You then doubled down on this mischaracterization not just once but twice. And if there was any doubt at all about what you meant, you later eliminated it with your "rape rape" comment.

So, Giantrobo, please don't lie.
Do you or don't you believe that a person who rapes a person in a vegetative state should get a less harsh punishment? Because if you do, and as you claim AZ agrees with your views on Rape Crimes. Then yes, both you and AZ have problematic views on this issue. That's not personal dig.

If you don't...then we can end this discussion now in agreement.
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Old 01-11-19, 11:40 PM
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Re: Vague thread titles are Disgusting

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Do you or don't you believe that a person who rapes a person in a vegetative state should get a less harsh punishment?
Yup. I think both someone who rapes a woman in a PVS and someone who forcibly rapes a normal woman are both guilty of the same felony but that the second perpetrator should, all other factors being equal, get the longer sentence. I have explained why multiple times in detail and you have never responded to those posts. Also, this does not justify or excuse your language, most especially your pretty obvious intimations that I am a rape apologist and your insulting "rape rape" remark. At not point ever have I stated, suggested, or implied that the crime committed against this woman in Arizona was not a heinous crime.

The fact of the matter is that the victim of the second crime suffers much more harm than a woman in a vegetative state. Basing punishment in vulnerability instead of harm is simply illogical. In an ideal world, both issues are weighed, but the impact to the victim is clearly far greater in the second example. That's why it should get the longer sentence. I would also argue that the man who commits the second crime is also likely to be a substantially greater danger to society, likewise compelling a longer sentence (but the judge needs to go with her/his gut on this point).

Because if you do, and as you claim AZ agrees with your views on Rape Crimes. Then yes, both you and AZ have problematic views on this issue.
And you continually get this wrong. I never said AZ agrees with me on this. Go back and read my post, and more specifically the Michael Corvin post I responded to, again. I was comparing the sentences for rape and necrophilia which Corvin, for some reason, decided to bring into the discussion.
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