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Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Old 06-23-18, 01:10 PM
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Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

This happened to my mother in law and I need some help making sense of it.

My mother in law lives in California

Her father lives in Oregon and is Oregon resident.

A year ago MIL visited Oregon. It was decided that she would buy a gun. MIL and her father go to Oregon gun store. They pick a revolver. Father buys it. Quick background check and no waiting period in Oregon.

MIL pays father for the cost of gun and he types up a bill of sale on his computer. Just a simple Word doc that says “so and so paid so and so $300 in exchange for one revolver” sort of thing. MIL drives home to California.

Within just a few weeks father becomes worried. He calls and says there might be a problem. He eventually drives 13 hours (that’s 26 hours round trip) to MIL’s house just to get the gun and take it back to Oregon. He was convinced he’d done something illegal.

I don’t think he did. I think the guy is getting a little too old and paranoid.

How say you all!?!?

Last edited by Mabuse; 06-23-18 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 06-23-18, 01:25 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

I think he believes private sales between family members are not allowed in Oregon, but as far as I know they are. Maybe there’s a provision that such transfers not leave the state, but I can’t find one.
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Old 06-23-18, 01:35 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

As of January 1, 2015, a new law in California supplants the federal law. It, too, prohibits California residents from buying guns out of state and simply driving home with them (or shipping them home). Now, the seller must ship to a licensed California dealer, who will treat the event like any in-state transaction, involving the waiting period, background check, and safety certificate. (Penal Code Section 27585.)

Even though his sale to her was a private transaction, better safe than sorry?

ETA It seems the primary concern is that the gun entering the state is owned by a licensed and registered owner, regardless of how it was obtained.
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Old 06-23-18, 01:40 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Your mother in laws father is correct. I’m not sure he was committing a crime, but your mother in law certainly was. I’m fairly certain she broke several laws on both the federal and state levels. What is in her background that she can’t just legally buy a gun in her own state in her own name?
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Old 06-23-18, 01:46 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Bonus mention that fathers will do anything to get some peaceful alone time driving ...
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Old 06-23-18, 02:59 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
Your mother in laws father is correct. I’m not sure he was committing a crime, but your mother in law certainly was. I’m fairly certain she broke several laws on both the federal and state levels. What is in her background that she can’t just legally buy a gun in her own state in her own name?
Nothing wrong with her background. I think it was just something to do together while on vacation.

Reading that 2015 law, it says out of state dealers can’t sell to California residents. They have to follow California laws and then ship the gun to California. The dealer in this situation sold the gun to an Oregon resident, who then sold it to his daughter.

The more I read about it the more confused I get. Father probably erred on the right side of caution. If MIL had bought it from gun dealer herself that would definitely be a bad, but father bought it and then sold it to her.

Last edited by Mabuse; 06-23-18 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 06-23-18, 05:09 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Nothing wrong with her background. I think it was just something to do together while on vacation.
I must go on different types of vacations, because I have never once thought to purchase a firearm on one.

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Reading that 2015 law, it says out of state dealers can’t sell to California residents. They have to follow California laws and then ship the gun to California. The dealer in this situation sold the gun to an Oregon resident, who then sold it to his daughter.

The more I read about it the more confused I get. Father probably erred on the right side of caution. If MIL had bought it from gun dealer herself that would definitely be a bad, but father bought it and then sold it to her.
As I said, it is a crime. See below from the ATF.

Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).
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Old 06-23-18, 11:25 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post

My mother in law lives in California
^^ This is the problem right here

But to be fair, this is actually a federal law that covers all states, not just a California gun law


https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...aspdf/download

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this
prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is
provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by
intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who
inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).
3. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a resident of the same State in which I reside?
Any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he
does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate interstate firearm
transactions. Any person considering acquiring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney
General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions. A list of State
Attorney General contact numbers may be found at www.naag.org.- 3 -

Face to Face gun transfers/sales can only happen between two residents of the SAME state, only in states where state laws do not deny this right. Hint: California does not even allow face to face between residents.

You are adding the complication of a family relationship, remove that from the equation as there is no law that applies to family members that will allow a gun transfer across state lines.
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Old 06-24-18, 12:02 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Don't forget the fact that Mabuse's MIL has several convictions ranging from public drunkenness to manslaughter.
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Old 06-24-18, 12:07 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Oh, in that case, just ship it and save the drive. Label the box, "DEFINITELY NOT A GUN" and you'll be fine.
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Old 06-24-18, 07:31 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by story View Post
Oh, in that case, just ship it and save the drive. Label the box, "DEFINITELY NOT A GUN" and you'll be fine.
Thank you for finally offering some sage advice worthy of Other. Slightly disappointed that no one has chimed in with “pee on the (gun) butt” yet.
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Old 06-24-18, 08:10 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

I know in NY transactions now have to be done through an authorized dealer. Dealers are pissed because it sucks up their time and they get only pennies for it if anything.

Being that it was in the family, why can't it just be a gift or co-ownership? Any money exchange can be on the DL. There must be some consideration for family members gifts or inheritance situations. I only have a few but my pistols are all on my son's permit. If anything happens to me he can own them with no paperwork or worry. The drawback of co-ownership naturally is that if he does commit a crime with them, technically it is still my gun so I could be held liable. But he is 29 and a Captain in the US Army so I believe I'm as safe as anyone can be.
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Old 06-24-18, 08:59 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Thanks for the help everybody. The good news for my MIL is that her son in law (not me) is a federally licensed gun dealer. So maybe it’ll get transferred properly one day. Also good news is grandpa is not as nutty as I feared.
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Old 06-24-18, 10:41 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by story View Post
Oh, in that case, just ship it and save the drive. Label the box, "DEFINITELY NOT A GUN" and you'll be fine.
Pro tip: Writing "DEFINITELY NOT DRUGS" is a great way of easily shipping, well, not drugs of course
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Old 06-24-18, 11:51 AM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
I must go on different types of vacations, because I have never once thought to purchase a firearm on one.
What, you mean this isn't a typical vacation activity in the US?
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Old 06-24-18, 12:10 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Why the rigamarole? Why not just buy a gun in California? Was there some urgent reason she couldn't wait?
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Old 06-24-18, 12:18 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by cultshock View Post
What, you mean this isn't a typical vacation activity in the US?
That fact that many of you perceive this as out of the ordinary is probably why we can’t see eye to eye on gun control.

Mrs. Danger, for many people they do it for one simple reason: Because they can. Oregon doesn’t have a waiting period like California.
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Old 06-24-18, 12:23 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Why do ladies with 20 pairs of shoes go shoe shopping? Because it’s something they enjoy.

It’s the same for many gun owners. They love to browse, talk to the salesmen, see what’s new. Many times the browsing turns into purchasing.

I’m not a fan of excessive consumption of shoes or guns, but at least I understand the concept.
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Old 06-24-18, 12:30 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
That fact that many of you perceive this as out of the ordinary is probably why we can’t see eye to eye on gun control.

Mrs. Danger, for many people they do it for one simple reason: Because they can. Oregon doesn’t have a waiting period like California.
Got it, so breaking federal and state the laws are cool, so long as you can get away with it. That is definitely something we will never see eye to eye on. I’m getting the feeling this is really one of those “asking for a friend” type things, except there is no friend.
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Old 06-24-18, 12:45 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

No I’m literally asking for a family member. Fortunately they straightened it out. Breaking firearms laws is definitely not something they wanted. Both are upstanding citizens.

If I were asking for myself I’d say so. Is there something in my history here that would make you think I’d hide behind “asking for a friend”?
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Old 06-24-18, 01:02 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
That fact that many of you perceive this as out of the ordinary is probably why we can’t see eye to eye on gun control.
Perhaps, but then again I don't live in the US, so to me this kind of thing is more than "out of the ordinary" but rather verging on something completely alien and strange. Not judging, I have no idea how your patchwork of gun laws work down there.
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Old 06-24-18, 01:37 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by cultshock View Post
Perhaps, but then again I don't live in the US, so to me this kind of thing is more than "out of the ordinary" but rather verging on something completely alien and strange. Not judging, I have no idea how your patchwork of gun laws work down there.
You, and most US citizens ...
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Old 06-24-18, 02:34 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

I believe buying a gun with the intent to transfer it to someone else is a straw man purchase, and very illegal.

No, I don't know how gifts work.
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Old 06-24-18, 03:28 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
If I were asking for myself I’d say so. Is there something in my history here that would make you think I’d hide behind “asking for a friend”?
Not likely.
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Old 06-24-18, 04:05 PM
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Re: Gun buying conundrum (with bonus Oregon content)

Another reason I forgot to point is that there’s no sales tax in Oregon. It’s definitely a tradition in my wife’s family to make big purchases while visiting Dad in Oregon. Tv’s, cameras, iPads...GUNS!
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