Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk
Reload this Page >

An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Other Talk "Otterville" plus Religion/Politics

An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Old 07-30-15, 02:25 PM
  #151  
Senior Member
 
smg669's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 897
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

If that Cecil was so smart, he wouldn't have fallen for the trick that lured him out of his protected area.
smg669 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:28 PM
  #152  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 8,145
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

At first I was somewhat sympathetic to the negative reaction to this guy. Personally, I don't get big game hunting. Frankly, I find the practice repulsive and most often a reflection of the worst kind of machismo.

Having said that, as this has spiraled completely out of control in the past few days, the sanctimonious, hypocritical overreaction has started to grate on me.

Consider:
1. This guy may be a colossal douche, but he didn't invent big game hunting and he's not the world's sole practitioner. Why are people suddenly so "outraged"? It's disingenuous. The fact that he's rich, white and American likely has a lot to do with it...

2. Big game hunting is legal. This shouldn't be news to people. People may not like it, but that doesn't mean that others can't do it. I'm not even sure that it's clear that what the hunter in this case did was "illegal"

3. As other have mentioned, many (most?) conservationalists agree that licensed hunting is often a key strategy in protecting threatened species. A cursory Google will reveal numerous scholarly studies on this topic. In the US, a key factor in the dramatic resurgence of species like pronghorn, wild turkeys, elk, bear etc was controlled hunting. The idea that high priced, licensed hunting is helping make lions extinct is ridiculous, the exact opposite is much more likely true. This case may be a case of poaching, but that's down to unscrupulous guides (and potentially an unscrupulous hunter), not the entire practice of licensed hunting.

4. No one in the world knew who the hell "Cecil" was before this. Suddenly he's a "star attraction" who was "known to millions". Give me a break. The bandwagoning and incessant wailing is ludicrous. This has become a prime example of the "outrage" flavor of the month: people these days just love to feel morally superior. Celebrities baying for blood (literally), death threats being made, people tweeting the hunter's home address and blatantly seeking mob justice... maybe, just maybe this daily social media feeding frenzy has gone a bit too far?

5. This world has mechanized the daily slaughter of countless animals. "Charimatic megafauna" like lions are treasured while cows are lined up in their thousands every day and subjected to the captive bolt gun. The argument that somehow being a modern-day meat eater is completely different than being a trophy hunter is extremely debatable to me. No one "needs" to eat meat, it's a luxury. To me, trying to draw a strict, black and white moral line line between hunting and a slaughterhouse is slightly hypocritical. In fact, one could argue that at least hunters are "getting their hands dirty". The supermarket steak buyer (like me) who doesn't consider that something had to die for our dinner has no reason to feel superior.

Last edited by Hiro11; 07-30-15 at 02:34 PM.
Hiro11 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:30 PM
  #153  
DVD Talk Legend
 
GoldenJCJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13,092
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by nando820 View Post
Just came here to say, my dislike for this dentist is the same as for any other lion, rhino, or bear hunter
Or any other dentist, for that matter.
GoldenJCJ is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:36 PM
  #154  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,726
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I mocked the idea of posting on his Yelp page. But seriously, fuck these people. The internet has given the world of idiots a meeting place. These fucktards had no idea nor interest in Cecil. But they congregate and launch attacks thinking they're clever cheeky activists.
You mean the Internet made people aware of things they weren't aware of before or never bothered to think about?
CRM114 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:39 PM
  #155  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
joeblow69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Palm Springs
Posts: 8,072
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
And only if you compare an animal to a tree.
It's a valid way to show you can be for something, without being for EVERYTHING. I guess I just don't live in the same world of absolutes that you do.
joeblow69 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:42 PM
  #156  
DVD Talk Legend
 
cungar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,523
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
You mean the Internet made people aware of things they weren't aware of before or never bothered to think about?
And made them see they could make a difference in this world... by clicking Like along with 700 other people on a Facebook post
cungar is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:55 PM
  #157  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,726
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
It's a valid way to show you can be for something, without being for EVERYTHING. I guess I just don't live in the same world of absolutes that you do.
Again, animals are not trees. Animals have brains, fear, and feel pain.
CRM114 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:55 PM
  #158  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Giantrobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South Bay
Posts: 56,650
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

at the inevitable backlash to the reaction to this Hunter's kill.





Giantrobo is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:57 PM
  #159  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,726
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
And made them see they could make a difference in this world... by clicking Like along with 700 other people on a Facebook post
Or watch a factory slaughterhouse video and stop eating meat.

I'm not going to stick up for the Facebook crowd whose activism involves "likes" or posting some ridiculous photo and slogan they didn't even think up themselves. But to suggest that the awareness the Internet brings is all pointless is being disingenuous.
CRM114 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 02:59 PM
  #160  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
joeblow69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Palm Springs
Posts: 8,072
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Again, animals are not trees. Animals have brains, fear, and feel pain.
lol, it's not an argument of animals vs trees, it's an argument of degrees, and sanity. Unless you are going to call animal rights activists all hypocrites if they ever killed a mosquito in their life.
joeblow69 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:06 PM
  #161  
DVD Talk Legend
 
AGuyNamedMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: (formerly known as Inglenook Hampendick) Fairbanks, Alaska!
Posts: 15,093
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Here's an interesting point of view from the scene of the crime:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0Q41UW20150730
AGuyNamedMike is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:22 PM
  #162  
DVD Talk Legend
 
GoldenJCJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13,092
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
at the inevitable backlash to the reaction to this Hunter's kill.
Within a week, I predict this guy's waiting room will be filled with a bunch of Ted Nugent looking motherfuckers as his new patients.
GoldenJCJ is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:30 PM
  #163  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 20,974
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
You mean the Internet made people aware of things they weren't aware of before or never bothered to think about?
The internet is a very organized place for collectives to get together and escalate problems. From PETA to White Supremacists. This is just a DVD forum. I'm sure there's a central meeting place for people to go and develop all kinds of inflammatory and insulting rhetoric about this situation.

Some discussion (including social media) about "Trophy Hunting" is positive. Creating a collective of people against Trophy Hunting is good. Writing "Rot In Hell" on a trophy hunter's place of business is not fine.

Nothing good ever comes from brash and insulting behavior. It only makes the discussion more brash and insulting. There is NEVER a right time to be brash and insulting. It NEVER accomplishes anything. It has a history of NEVER accomplishing anything.

He's a guy that is probably approachable and could be talked to. But that's not provocative enough for the internet. "These people" feel empowered by going to his office and writing "ROT IN HELL" on his door.

You want to actually HELP? You don't go to the guy's door and write "ROT IN HELL" on it. You develop a strategy. Whether you're part of civil online discussion, or working with authorities to make sure it doesn't happen again. You know what would be really SHOCKING? If someone with a pro-animal Youtube channel sat down with the dentist for a civil interview and discussion about trophy hunting.

Okay, look at it this way. People are high-fiving each other for doing what they're doing to the dentist. If I want to make an equivalent statement, I'll look up neighbors who voted Republican in 2000, splash pig guts on their front doors, and place a postcard with death statistics and "ROT IN HELL" written on the back. I wouldn't do that, because I'd be an asshole if I did. Nor would I write "Jenny is a SLUT" on the local water tower.

Get it?

You know something else that's bothering me? This forum is getting full of cantankerous, pessimistic and cynical posts from everyone. It's leaving me wanting to get out of my house and make "real friends" for the first time in many years. There's something strange abrew. I'm afraid you guys are close to creating that "One and Only Suicide Pact" thread. Maybe we need a civil discussion about that.
Troy Stiffler is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:36 PM
  #164  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Me007gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,207
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike View Post
Here's an interesting point of view from the scene of the crime:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0Q41UW20150730
"Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country," said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. "What is so special about this one?"

As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.
The world of Palmer, who paid $50,000 to kill 13-year-old Cecil, is a very different one from that inhabited by millions of rural Africans who are more than occasionally victims of wild animal attacks.

According to CrocBITE, a database, from January 2008 to October 2013, there were more than 460 recorded attacks by Nile crocodiles, most of them fatal. That tally is almost certainly a massive underrepresentation.

"Why are the Americans more concerned than us?" said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. "We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange."
Fake outrage. People need something to be upset at. Give it a week, they will be on to the next topic
Me007gold is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:42 PM
  #165  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 20,974
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

There's got to be a better term. I think people are sincerely upset. "Kneejerk Outrage". "Collective Outrage". "Temporary Frustration". "Media-Fueled Outrage". "Social Media Outrage". "Passive Outrage".
Troy Stiffler is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:46 PM
  #166  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Mikael79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: IA Now, From MN
Posts: 5,907
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
Fake outrage. People need something to be upset at. Give it a week, they will be on to the next topic
Big fucking deal - the important thing is that this is getting coverage and attention, including your attention. You clicked, you commented, you thought about the whole thing.

Is anyone still talking about the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge today? Not really, but it did a lot of good for the cause by raising awareness and money.

Animal rights is my personal issue that I deepy care about. Not everyone has "fake outrage" about the issue.
Mikael79 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:47 PM
  #167  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
mike45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,309
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

We've heard about the huge amounts of money paid by big game hunters. But how much of that money actually goes to the purposes they were intended? The corruption of some of these countries is well known. How much of these hunting fees actually end up in the pockets of corrupt government officials?
mike45 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:54 PM
  #168  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,134
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I like how you qualify that - "for food". The problem is that in this country, unless you are an eskimo or like in the Ozarks, you don't need to eat meat. It's a luxury and a choice to willingly kill an animal for personal gratification.
Many hunters of deer and other animals, butcher their kills and either cook it or sell it as food. Not sure what your point is?

Big game or trophy hunting is simply it's own category of hunting. And that is what the outrage is about. Why you are consistently trying to conflate it with other activities is simply confusing.

Many people, myself included, aren't angry b/c this man killed an animal. We're angry b/c this man engages in big game hunting and kills animals for no reason other than "personal gratification." There has been no mention/record of this guy doing anything with his kills other than taking douchey photographs with them before mounting them on his walls. Nor has there been any justification beyond "well, it wasn't illegal!" for the practice.

Unfortunate for this one dentist to bear the brunt of the world's anger at the big game hunting industry, but such is the fickle nature of celebrity, intended or otherwise. In an ideal world, I would love to see every big game hunter's lives ruined, but that just doesn't happen.
BambooLounge is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:55 PM
  #169  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Me007gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,207
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Mikael79 View Post
Big fucking deal - the important thing is that this is getting coverage and attention, including your attention. You clicked, you commented, you thought about the whole thing.

Is anyone still talking about the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge today? Not really, but it did a lot of good for the cause by raising awareness and money.

Animal rights is my personal issue that I deepy care about. Not everyone has "fake outrage" about the issue.
And what does going after/attacking/shaming the dentist do to help with animal rights? You are aware part of conservation is population control right? Like that article says, what does it say when you are more upset the then the people who live there? I am giving it attention to call out all the bullshit outrage from most of the people out there
Me007gold is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 03:57 PM
  #170  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,134
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
You know something else that's bothering me? This forum is getting full of cantankerous, pessimistic and cynical posts from everyone. It's leaving me wanting to get out of my house and make "real friends" for the first time in many years. There's something strange abrew. I'm afraid you guys are close to creating that "One and Only Suicide Pact" thread. Maybe we need a civil discussion about that.
I'd probably suggest you, me, everyone on this forum do that anyway. I'm pretty sure we can all balance the demands on our social calendars of real life friends and posting on a forum during work.

See, no cynicism there...sunshine and lollipops...
BambooLounge is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 04:02 PM
  #171  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,134
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
And what does going after/attacking/shaming the dentist do to help with animal rights? You are aware part of conservation is population control right? Like that article says, what does it say when you are more upset the then the people who live there? I am giving it attention to call out all the bullshit outrage from most of the people out there
Potentially acts as a deterrent to other people from engaging in these activities. It is a tangible expression of outrage that gets more attention than a change.org petition. It is something someone can cite or recall when making a decision about whether or not to market xyz or support something. It can make an otherwise accepted activity stigmatized to the point of being socially unacceptable to the point of eventually being outlawed (see: public outrage over cigarettes or any other social movement in the past forever ago).
BambooLounge is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 04:07 PM
  #172  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Mikael79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: IA Now, From MN
Posts: 5,907
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
And what does going after/attacking/shaming the dentist do to help with animal rights? You are aware part of conservation is population control right? Like that article says, what does it say when you are more upset the then the people who live there? I am giving it attention to call out all the bullshit outrage from most of the people out there
I'm not part of the crowd saying anything physical should be done to the dentist, I prefer people to boycott his business.

I don't see what is important about what two locals think about the situation. I'm sure one could find a few locals in Iraq that don't have a problem with things we here in the West consider a horrible crime - does that make it any less of a problem?

I know you weren't directing your comments at me personally, or people who seriously support animal rights, but don't blame the issue itself. It needs to be addressed, even if just for a week.
Mikael79 is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 04:12 PM
  #173  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Me007gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,207
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Mikael79 View Post
I'm not part of the crowd saying anything physical should be done to the dentist, I prefer people to boycott his business.
I was using attack in a very loose sense. His Yelp page was "attacked", he was receiving death threats and had to close his practice. That no only effects him, but every one who works for him, all of his patients who were happy with his service. You should only be allowed to boycott something, if you have used the service in the past. People who have never used his service have no right to post on Yelp. Unless your someone who live in his town, and where considering using his service or currently used his service, your boycott is meaningless.
Me007gold is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 04:16 PM
  #174  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 20,974
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Mikael79 View Post
Animal rights is my personal issue that I deeply care about.
That is interesting. How would you separate the "trophy hunters" from the Zimbabweans who kill the lions regularly for food and/or protection? Is it a big issue a a Zimbabwean kills a lion because he fears an attack, and then doesn't eat it (if that's a possibility)?

Seems like the residual problem is that he accidently killed a well-known research-project animal.

Also, Zimbabwe is one of the 1-2 poorest countries (they're known for having the trillion dollar bill until just this year). An injection of $50k USD is probably a godsend.
Troy Stiffler is offline  
Old 07-30-15, 04:19 PM
  #175  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Mikael79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: IA Now, From MN
Posts: 5,907
Re: An American Dentist Killed Zimbabwe’s Famous Lion

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
I was using attack in a very loose sense. His Yelp page was "attacked", he was receiving death threats and had to close his practice. That no only effects him, but every one who works for him, all of his patients who were happy with his service. You should only be allowed to boycott something, if you have used the service in the past. People who have never used his service have no right to post on Yelp. Unless your someone who live in his town, and where considering using his service or currently used his service, your boycott is meaningless.
I'd much rather have some twit post a negative review on Yelp versus making threats. I'm from the Twin Cities originally, and I know that there are a ton of hunters up there who will go out of their way to support the dentist, because they share the same views. There are also positive reviews from pro-hunting folks who haven't used his business. If it doesn't even out, that tells you where the majority of the public stands - right or wrong.
Mikael79 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.