Other Talk "Otterville" plus Religion/Politics

Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Old 07-04-15, 04:02 PM
  #1  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 20,929
Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Though this is in Canada, the FAA works closely with the TSB and are likely monitoring this:

Linky: http://www.thestar.com/business/2015...airplanes.html

Infants and young children could be required to be belted in their own airline seats instead of being held on their parents’ laps, if the Transportation Safety Board of Canada’s latest recommendations are adopted. “In some cases of severe turbulence, or a sudden deceleration, or an accident, parents simply can’t hang on to the baby as hard as they might try,” said Kathy Fox, chair of the Transportation Safety Board.

“That’s why they need to be in a separate seat.”

The recommendations were released this week as part of a report into a Perimeter Aviation crash in December 2012, in Sanikiluaq, Nunavut, where a 6-month-old baby, who was being held by his mother, was killed when the small turboprop overshot the runway as pilots tried to land a second time in bad weather.

The TSB report said the aircraft came in “too high, too steep, and too fast,” hitting the ground 160 meters past the end of the runway. The other six adult passengers including Isaac’s mother and two pilots, who were all secured by seatbelts, suffered injuries ranging from minor to serious. “If the baby had been in his own seat, with a proper seat restraint system, he would have had a better chance of survival, given that everybody else survived,” said Fox.

Transport Canada encourages passengers to use an approved car seat for infants or children when travelling by air, but it is not required. Its policy is similar to other countries including the United States. Fox noted not all approved car seats are compatible in all aircraft seats, and airlines want quick turn around times, so installing a car seat can delay departures.

“But these shouldn’t be obstacles to doing what’s right for children,” she said, adding this could spur development of better restraint systems that may be easier to install.

If Transport Canada were to mandate the changes, it would mean every child, even those under 2, who are currently allowed to fly for free if held by parents in their arms, would need to have his or her own seat. That would likely bring higher costs for families wanting to travel by air.
Like most things involving air travel (or car travel, or crossing the road), it's all gonna come down to managed risk... in simple terms, it'll be the likelihood of a child being injured (or killed) on a given flight times the cost of that injury versus the cost of preventing that injury.

Frankly, I'll be stunned if the numbers come up even close. My feeling is that the cost will FAR outweigh the benefit.
kenbuzz is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 07:17 PM
  #2  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,230
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Keep your goddamn babies at home. And your self-entitlements.

the FAA works closely with the TSB and are likely monitoring this
"monitor" and "FAA" and "TSB" in the same sentence is hilarious.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 07:47 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Heart of the Heart
Posts: 9,021
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by kenbuzz View Post
Though this is in Canada, the FAA works closely with the TSB and are likely monitoring this:

Linky: http://www.thestar.com/business/2015...airplanes.html



Like most things involving air travel (or car travel, or crossing the road), it's all gonna come down to managed risk... in simple terms, it'll be the likelihood of a child being injured (or killed) on a given flight times the cost of that injury versus the cost of preventing that injury.

Frankly, I'll be stunned if the numbers come up even close. My feeling is that the cost will FAR outweigh the benefit.
The cost to who? If changes are made where the infant is required to have his/her own seat, I'm guessing the seat will have to be paid for, just as is the case now for children 2 and up.
broadwayblue is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 08:51 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Legend
 
cungar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,838
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
The cost to who? If changes are made where the infant is required to have his/her own seat, I'm guessing the seat will have to be paid for, just as is the case now for children 2 and up.
Don't think there's really a question about who will be paying for it.
cungar is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 08:54 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 30,923
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Keep your goddamn babies at home. And your self-entitlements.
YEAH. Fucking grandparents who are too old to travel shouldn't get to see them when they're little. 'MERICA!
Draven is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 09:01 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Me007gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,209
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
YEAH. Fucking grandparents who are too old to travel shouldn't get to see them when they're little. 'MERICA!
It's much easier for grandparents to travel then it is for an infant
Me007gold is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 09:19 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 30,923
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
It's much easier for grandparents to travel then it is for an infant
Is it? Do tell.
Draven is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 09:22 PM
  #8  
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 19,572
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Me007gold View Post
It's much easier for grandparents to travel then it is for an infant
Yeah, no. That is absolutely not always the case.
Dan is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 10:03 PM
  #9  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Crocker Jarmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,752
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

I don't understand, if pets are okay going under the plane in storage, why not babies?
Crocker Jarmen is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 10:10 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Me007gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,209
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Yeah, no. That is absolutely not always the case.
I guess if they are invalid it not, but in most other situations it should be true.
Me007gold is offline  
Old 07-04-15, 10:16 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,695
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Planes are too crowded.

I do wonder about the stroller on the bus rule. It seems to vary by state, but in general, before getting on a bus, the parent has to fold up the stroller and carry the baby and no guarantee a seat will be available. So I don't know about safety, especially when there are no seatbelts there.

Bus drivers tell me, it's a $5,000 fine for them if a stroller is open on the bus.
Ranger is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 11:56 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Abob Teff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Not necessarily Formerly known as Solid Snake
Posts: 20,060
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Sounds reasonable to me. Now, can we do something about the idiots who drive around with their dogs sitting in the driver's lap?
Abob Teff is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 12:03 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
Posts: 16,900
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

All these idiots with "Therapy Dogs" should have to buy their pet a seat too.
Mabuse is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 05:49 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 20,929
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
The cost to who? If changes are made where the infant is required to have his/her own seat, I'm guessing the seat will have to be paid for, just as is the case now for children 2 and up.
The point I was trying to make was the expected "cost" of accepting the risk of allowing 2 y/o kids to continue to fly as lap children versus to known cost of buying a seat for that child... that's the tradeoff that should be made before deciding whether this rule should be implemented. I mean, we could add cages and roll bars and titanium cocoons around all of the seats, but the cost of doing so (in terms of reduced # of seats, additional fuel requirements to haul all that weight around) would make the already high cost of flying prohibitively expensive. We accept a certain level of risk when we fly because it makes sense financially to do so.

The statistical value of a human life, as currently used by the US DoT, is $9.4M [Source: here]. The likelihood of you or I dying on a specific commercial flight is approximately one in 11 million (says Google), so the "hit" you take on the statistical value of your life because you boarded that plane is about eighty-five cents. So, before deciding whether to force parents to fork over ~$300 to buy a ticket for their infant, the probability of a lap child dying on that flight BECAUSE they weren't strapped into a seat needs to be known, because without that it's gonna be damned difficult to figure out whether that $300 ticket makes sense to buy or not.

If it DOES make sense to do that... great. But if not, and if families begin to avoid air travel because of the unjustified extra cost, I could see the airline industry pushing back.
kenbuzz is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 05:58 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Heart of the Heart
Posts: 9,021
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by kenbuzz View Post
The point I was trying to make was the expected "cost" of accepting the risk of allowing 2 y/o kids to continue to fly as lap children versus to known cost of buying a seat for that child... that's the tradeoff that should be made before deciding whether this rule should be implemented. I mean, we could add cages and roll bars and titanium cocoons around all of the seats, but the cost of doing so (in terms of reduced # of seats, additional fuel requirements to haul all that weight around) would make the already high cost of flying prohibitively expensive. We accept a certain level of risk when we fly because it makes sense financially to do so.

The statistical value of a human life, as currently used by the US DoT, is $9.4M [Source: here]. The likelihood of you or I dying on a specific commercial flight is approximately one in 11 million (says Google), so the "hit" you take on the statistical value of your life because you boarded that plane is about eighty-five cents. So, before deciding whether to force parents to fork over ~$300 to buy a ticket for their infant, the probability of a lap child dying on that flight BECAUSE they weren't strapped into a seat needs to be known, because without that it's gonna be damned difficult to figure out whether that $300 ticket makes sense to buy or not.

If it DOES make sense to do that... great. But if not, and if families begin to avoid air travel because of the unjustified extra cost, I could see the airline industry pushing back.
From my understanding the number of significant injuries to lap infants is far greater than deaths, which would make sense. But many of those injuries include severe head trauma, etc, most of which can be prevented. And we're only talking about children under two, as everyone above that age is already paying for a ticket. My guess is it's only a matter of time before that age is reduced further. Maybe not to 0, but perhaps to 1 for starters. That said, I'm about to take my child on an international flight as a lap child and it does scare me.
broadwayblue is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 07:30 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Hail to the Redskins!
Posts: 24,661
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Keep your goddamn babies at home. And your self-entitlements.
Do you write stupid shit on purpose, or is it just the way your brain works?
DVD Josh is offline  
Old 07-05-15, 09:40 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 20,929
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
From my understanding the number of significant injuries to lap infants is far greater than deaths, which would make sense. But many of those injuries include severe head trauma, etc, most of which can be prevented. And we're only talking about children under two, as everyone above that age is already paying for a ticket. My guess is it's only a matter of time before that age is reduced further. Maybe not to 0, but perhaps to 1 for starters. That said, I'm about to take my child on an international flight as a lap child and it does scare me.
I understand where you're coming from.... I'd just like to see some science here rather than a knee-jerk reaction.

Maybe a lap child could wear a reusable $50 "happy helmet" instead of making a family plop several hundreds of dollars on the table every time they fly? I dunno, but if there was at least a little bit of math here, then we could figure out how to address the risk properly rather than rush to a solution proposed by an emotional Canadian bureaucrat.
kenbuzz is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 09:27 AM
  #18  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
mrhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,069
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Is it? Do tell.
Well, it does depend on the individual. My parents are in their 80's and they travel around the world at least 3 times a year on their own. However, my in-laws are totally helpless and they are the same age; they need help getting out of their own house. They can't drive and depend on us to get them around.
mrhan is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 05:29 PM
  #19  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Moore,OK
Posts: 112
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

But if they are strapped in a seat, they won't be able to able to continually kick the back of my seat while their parents pretend not to notice.
seester is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 07:48 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Heart of the Heart
Posts: 9,021
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by kenbuzz View Post
I understand where you're coming from.... I'd just like to see some science here rather than a knee-jerk reaction.

Maybe a lap child could wear a reusable $50 "happy helmet" instead of making a family plop several hundreds of dollars on the table every time they fly? I dunno, but if there was at least a little bit of math here, then we could figure out how to address the risk properly rather than rush to a solution proposed by an emotional Canadian bureaucrat.
I clearly don't have enough information to know what is right. But how many infants should need to be saved from death or significant injury to justify it?
1? 10? 100?

Perhaps the happy helmet is worth looking into. Could be some money to be made there lives to be saved there.
broadwayblue is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 08:36 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 21,242
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

That really sucks for parents who are used to having 2-and-under fly for free. Though, realistically, your kid isn't 2-or-under for long. I wonder how many plane trips the average 2-and-under child goes on in their lifetime?

Now movies. They have to get rid of that rule ASAP. It would dissuade parents from bringing in their crying babies.
Troy Stiffler is online now  
Old 07-06-15, 08:39 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Heart of the Heart
Posts: 9,021
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
That really sucks for parents who are used to having 2-and-under fly for free. Though, realistically, your kid isn't 2-or-under for long. I wonder how many plane trips the average 2-and-under child goes on in their lifetime?
Good question. Can't imagine the average 0-2 year old is on a plane more than a few times anyway.
broadwayblue is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 09:06 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Legend
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cygnus
Posts: 12,524
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

What could get real tricky is the modifications to the seats to accommodate these 0-2 year olds. Can't just plop the kids down on the current seats and use the standard seat belt. Also can't bring the typical car seat and place it on top of the seat on the plane.

We took my daughter on a couple flights when she was around 2yo and we used one of these. They work well.

http://kidsflysafe.com/
hdnmickey is offline  
Old 07-06-15, 09:55 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
d2cheer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 9,489
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Do you write stupid shit on purpose, or is it just the way your brain works?
d2cheer is offline  
Old 07-07-15, 01:35 AM
  #25  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,357
Re: Safety Board: Infants In Own Seats On Planes

I'm all for this, as it may make parents think twice before subjecting the rest of the paying passengers to their screaming rugrats. Their extra cost, and extra burden may make flying a little more pleasant for the rest of us. Never thought I'd say that flying could become more comfortable, but this may go a ways in accomplishing it.
zyzzle is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.