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19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

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19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Old 05-24-15, 06:07 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Although there has been a lot of more current research into treatment of juvenile sex offenders (such as Multisystemic Therapy), it might be relevant to see some of the research from around the time Duggar revealed his offenses:

http://www.practicenotes.org/vol7_no...rstand_jso.htm

Apologies to those who continue to think this is DVDTweet & don't like to read anything longer than one sentence, but here are a few excerpts from the article that contain points relevant to the discussion (and flawed conclusions drawn by many posters here speaking from bias rather than evidence):

Scope of the Problem

Research shows that sexual abuse of children is a widespread phenomenon. It is estimated that there are somewhere between 250,000 and 300,000 cases of child sexual abuse each year in the U.S. The estimated number of sex abuse survivors in the U.S. is over 60 million (NRCCSA, 1994). Although numbers of this magnitude shock us, they are familiar to most working in child welfare.

The significant contribution of juveniles to these overall numbers is less well known. It is estimated that in the United States juveniles account for up to one fifth of all rapes and up to one half of all cases of child molestation committed each year (CSOM, 1999).

**************************************************************************************************** ****************

Causes and Patterns

There are a host of theories that have been proposed to explain why some children and teens sexually abuse others. Although there is no clear and simple formula for how this happens—sexual offending behaviors are extremely complex—the theory most widely accepted today is known as the “learning theory,” which holds that sexually abusive behavior in children is linked to many factors, including exposure to sexuality and/or violence, early childhood experiences (e.g., sexual victimization), exposure to child pornography and advertising, substance abuse, heightened arousal to children, and exposure to aggressive role models/family violence (Ryan & Lane, 1997).

**************************************************************************************************** ****************

Recidivism

A common belief about juvenile sexual offenders is that even after treatment, most will offend again. Hunter (2000), citing the research literature, finds “no compelling evidence to suggest that the majority of juvenile sex offenders are likely to become adult sex offenders. . . . . juveniles who engage in sexual aggression frequently cease such behavior by the time they reach adulthood” (p. 1).

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-24-15 at 06:15 AM.
Old 05-24-15, 08:23 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Oh, he won't do it again. Let's pretend it never happened.
Old 05-24-15, 10:05 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Oh, he won't do it again. Let's pretend it never happened.
And go to great lengths to cover it up till 2015. The more one looks into this, the more disturbing it gets. Even Oprah is involved given a one time interest in having these "stars' on her show.

Based on what is out there now, it seems there was a lot favors traded in to keep this quiet till now. Got to give them a lot of credit. 13 years of silence takes a lot of influence.
Old 05-24-15, 10:31 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
When you say "regular people," are you talking about "regular 14-year-olds" who are discovered doing something like this? Can you cite ONE instance in which a person Duggar's age was discovered having sexual contact with younger kids & was taken to counseling (along with the victims) and the parents lost their jobs, were ostracized by the community, and were forced to leave town?

I would say that the reactions of parents are all over the map. Some parents would probably beat the crap out of the teen offender. Some would haul his butt to the local police station. Some would ignore it. Some would get him into some type of counseling.

Unless the parents were actively encouraging or ignoring the behavior, I seriously doubt that you'll be able to document a single instance in what you suggest is the normal reaction from the community in these type of cases has actually happened. I'd say that the reactions of most would border on sympathy for the parents & kids and, along with the initial anger & shock at the offender, some amount of pity for him/her. On the other hand, I'd expect that researching the issue in psychiatric journals would find that unwanted (or coerced) sexual contact between older teens & younger teens (or younger) is more common than people want to admit. I also suspect that the most common treatment except in cases of aggravated, forcible penetration is counseling (and, in the case of of judicial proceedings, pretrial diversion).
Fair enough. Most people could probably keep this covered up, but if it did get out through the rumor mill or the local paper, I doubt people would treat them the way they did previously.

And for the record, by regular people I meant families that are not politically corrected, at the forefront of fringe movements, or have their own freak-show reality TV series.
Old 05-24-15, 10:32 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
And go to great lengths to cover it up till 2015. The more one looks into this, the more disturbing it gets. Even Oprah is involved given a one time interest in having these "stars' on her show.
Oprah's people did the right thing though. They received the information, assessed it as credible and notified the proper authorities.
Old 05-24-15, 10:36 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Oprah's people did the right thing though. They received the information, assessed it as credible and notified the proper authorities.
Agreed. Just noting how far things went. It's those authorities that make you go hmmm....

Last edited by hdnmickey; 05-24-15 at 10:48 AM.
Old 05-24-15, 10:37 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

I just realized I posted this in the random picture thread yesterday like a dumbass.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/jo...ords-destroyed

Josh Duggar's Police Records Destroyed

Arkansas police have destroyed the records of the investigation into Josh Duggar's alleged molestation of five underage girls, a police spokesman announced Friday, a day after the reality TV star resigned his position as head of FRC Action.

Springdale Police spokesman Scott Lewis said Judge Stacey Zimmerman ordered the 2006 offense report destroyed Thursday. Zimmerman didn't return a request for comment on Friday.

"The judge ordered us yesterday to expunge that record," Lewis said, adding that similar records are typically kept indefinitely. "As far as the Springdale Police Department is concerned this report doesn't exist."
Looks like protecting this douchebag's ass is more important than we thought.
Old 05-24-15, 10:52 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
ILooks like protecting this douchebag's ass is more important than we thought.
Like I said, got to respect the amount of influence at work here. Also makes one wonder what else must have been in those records about that clan.

Huckabee should be toast. Not that many took him seriously before, but involvement in this case should make it clear to anybody not getting it before.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 05-24-15 at 11:22 AM.
Old 05-24-15, 10:52 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Although there has been a lot of more current research into treatment of juvenile sex offenders (such as Multisystemic Therapy), it might be relevant to see some of the research from around the time Duggar revealed his offenses:
Who gives a shit about treatment? I know as a Christian you're all into forgiveness and making amends and all that namby-pamby liberal bullshit, but as an atheist I just want the bastard punished. I don't care about his future, I don't care about him making amends. I want him to spend the rest of his life suffering and miserable for what he did.
Old 05-24-15, 11:11 AM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Who gives a shit about treatment? I know as a Christian you're all into forgiveness and making amends and all that namby-pamby liberal bullshit, but as an atheist I just want the bastard punished. I don't care about his future, I don't care about him making amends. I want him to spend the rest of his life suffering and miserable for what he did.
Well I'm all for the guy being punished and think there's something wrong with him, but "the rest of his life suffering and miserable" for what he did when he was 15? I think we can put away the torches and pitchforks.
Old 05-24-15, 12:48 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Fair enough. Most people could probably keep this covered up, but if it did get out through the rumor mill or the local paper, I doubt people would treat them the way they did previously.
I'd agree that people would look at him differently (the same as with any teen arrested or charged with a serious offense)...but I can't see the majority of people blaming the parents for what the kid did (or even for not demanding that he be put in juvie). Some would, some wouldn't. The posts here show a spectrum from feeling sorry for the parents (& kids...who would also be affected by the ostracism although four of the five victims were within the family) to those who think the parents are totally to blame.

It just seems oddly ironic that some here who think that excommunication from churches for unrepentant sin would gladly "excommunicate" an entire family (including the victims) from their community.

When I was a teenager, two junior high boys (one the leader, the other a follower) took two girls into an outbuilding and convinced two teen or preteen girls (all of them were 12-13 at the time) to disrobe. One girl had a big crush on the leader & would do anything to gain his attention, and her friend was also a follower. The rumor (pretty much verified) was that some touching went on, too. Neither boy was arrested & all of the families stayed in the community, although it was a brief scandal. The point is that the boys weren't trusted to be alone with the neighborhood girls, the girls in question were put on a short leash, and the families evidently avoided each other. Nobody was ridden out of town on a rail, and nobody lost jobs.

As for the details appearing in the paper, our local media never prints the names of minors (except in first-degree murder cases) who commit crimes...and sometimes omits the names of adults in cases involving incest so as not to identify the victims.

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Looks like protecting this douchebag's ass is more important than we thought.
Aren't juvenile records normally expunged when the kid turns 18? Or is that just for misdemeanors?

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Also makes one wonder what else must have been in those records about that clan.
It probably makes the creeps who have made three or four of the Duggar females the top trending topic on Yahoo wonder. The rest of us...not at all.

That's exactly the type of attitude that keeps a lot of female victims from testifying in cases of molestation & rape...the shame & humiliation of having their ordeal made public & the prurient interest of those who can't get enough of this stuff.

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Who gives a shit about treatment? I know as a Christian you're all into forgiveness and making amends and all that namby-pamby liberal bullshit, but as an atheist I just want the bastard punished. I don't care about his future, I don't care about him making amends. I want him to spend the rest of his life suffering and miserable for what he did.
Setting aside what the psychiatric community recommends for treating juvenile sex offenders, how would you punish him for what he did when he was 14? You don't think having his parents & siblings know what he did is punishment? You don't think losing his job is punishment? You don't think having to admit to strangers as a teen and to his future wife what he did when they met is punishment? You don't think hearing his name as a punchline from comedians punishment? You don't think that knowing what he did to his sisters is punishment? You don't think that knowing the embarrassment of having internet creeps looking up his sisters right now to enjoy some vicarious thrill of speculating about them is punishment?

We could just take all persons (male & female) who ever touched someone inappropriately without consent as a young adolescent, put them in cages, douse them with gasoline, and set them on fire. Of course, keeping in mind the age of consent in various states, that would round up quite a few who engaged in acts with underage kids who legally cannot give consent to sexual activity.

Should victim impact statements have any bearing? What if all of the females have moved on (especially since most of this touching took place when they were asleep) and think their brother has been punished enough...in addition to their own public embarrassment?

Seriously, what cungar said re: limits is exactly right IMO. Maybe others who were molested as kids by other kids think there is no end to the punishment the offender should face. According to the statistics in that 2003 report I cited, juveniles make up around half of the offenders in child molestation cases. That's a lot of retribution to be dishing out for people two years away from being able to drive a car.
Old 05-24-15, 01:16 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Setting aside what the psychiatric community recommends for treating juvenile sex offenders, how would you punish him for what he did when he was 14?

Well you see, in this country we have these places called "prison"...

You don't think having his parents & siblings know what he did is punishment? You don't think losing his job is punishment? You don't think having to admit to strangers as a teen and to his future wife what he did when they met is punishment? You don't think hearing his name as a punchline from comedians punishment? You don't think that knowing what he did to his sisters is punishment? You don't think that knowing the embarrassment of having internet creeps looking up his sisters right now to enjoy some vicarious thrill of speculating about them is punishment?
Oh, the manpain! How awful it is to be a molester! Clearly the suffering he goes through every day living a free life in a cushy home is so much more awful than going to jail.

You sound like that newscaster who, upon hearing of the verdict in the Steubenville rape case, bemoaned how it had ruined the lives of the two rapists.

We could just take all persons (male & female) who ever touched someone inappropriately without consent as a young adolescent, put them in cages, douse them with gasoline, and set them on fire. Of course, keeping in mind the age of consent in various states, that would round up quite a few who engaged in acts with underage kids who legally cannot give consent to sexual activity.
No, life in prison should be sufficient. But otherwise, yes, absolutely -- rapists and child molesters deserve the harshest punishment available.

Should victim impact statements have any bearing? What if all of the females have moved on (especially since most of this touching took place when they were asleep) and think their brother has been punished enough...in addition to their own public embarrassment?
Dude, what? That is one of the most offensive things you've ever said, and that's quite an achievement. Do the world a favor and stay the hell out of these discussions.
Old 05-24-15, 01:30 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
You sound like that newscaster who, upon hearing of the verdict in the Steubenville rape case, bemoaned how it had ruined the lives of the two rapists.
I also can't see these rape apologists (including Huckabee) coming out from under their rocks unless the perpetrator is one of their own fundie flock.

Dude, what? That is one of the most offensive things you've ever said, and that's quite an achievement.
Shit all over the place, and then cry foul when people call him on it, or refuse to take him seriously after stinking up each thread.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 05-24-15 at 03:58 PM.
Old 05-24-15, 01:44 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Life in prison for a 14 year old? Surely I'm misunderstanding you there Sean.
Old 05-24-15, 03:00 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Well you see, in this country we have these places called "prison"...



Oh, the manpain! How awful it is to be a molester! Clearly the suffering he goes through every day living a free life in a cushy home is so much more awful than going to jail.

You sound like that newscaster who, upon hearing of the verdict in the Steubenville rape case, bemoaned how it had ruined the lives of the two rapists.



No, life in prison should be sufficient. But otherwise, yes, absolutely -- rapists and child molesters deserve the harshest punishment available.



Dude, what? That is one of the most offensive things you've ever said, and that's quite an achievement. Do the world a favor and stay the hell out of these discussions.
If he was an adult I would agree with you, but a 14 year old?

Having prosecuted juvenile sexual offenders for several years, this never happens.

Many times, the offender isn't even sent to juvenile lockup. They usually have to live with somebody else (assuming that they victimized a person in their home - which is very often the case), abide by a DHS safety plan, and attend juvenile sex offender treatment. The whole goal isn't punishment in the juvenile system, but to rehabilitate. Some of those kids aren't even charged in the juvenile system at all (depending on their age... I've had child "sex offenders" that were as young as 8 years old)

Whether he has a lot of money or influence, wouldn't really impact that part of it. Many of the child sex offenders I prosecuted were lower income, and never required to be adjudicated of any sex offenses on the condition that they completed these programs. For what its worth, most of them were inappropriate boundary issues or exposure to sexualization at early age cases. I don't think hardly any of them were violent rapists. The violent rapists were treated substantially more harshly.

Also, just for the record, I'm not a fan of the Duggers by any means. I think that having 19 kids is actually pretty irresponsible, and I couldn't disagree with their politics regarding "family values" issues such as gay rights any more strongly.

Furthermore, I enjoy Schadenfreude as much as the next guy, and think that if you open yourself up to criticizing people as they do, you get what you deserve.

That being said, I just wanted to point out that treatment of juvenile sex offenders (under age 16 at least) is night and day from the treatment of adult sex offenders... probably for pretty good reason.
Old 05-24-15, 03:04 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

This guy is not going to be punished for what he did but the show should be off the air and they will hopefully shove the crap that they have been preaching right back down their own throats. They talk about how sex is so bad but yet have a gang of kids. Also, the hatred for gay people and saying that they need to be watched so the kids won't be molested is sickening.
Old 05-24-15, 03:55 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
This guy is not going to be punished for what he did but the show should be off the air and they will hopefully shove the crap that they have been preaching right back down their own throats. They talk about how sex is so bad but yet have a gang of kids. Also, the hatred for gay people and saying that they need to be watched so the kids won't be molested is sickening.
So this.
Old 05-24-15, 07:01 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Dude, what? That is one of the most offensive things you've ever said, and that's quite an achievement. Do the world a favor and stay the hell out of these discussions.
Aside from hoping that you've noted the reactions of [most] other posters to your idea of life in prison, perhaps you could describe your experiences of being molested as a child. I don't think about it unless I have to, but I can remember most details of what happened to me. Personally, I think I'd prefer that it had happened in my sleep & learned about it later, but I never had that option. That's all I was saying...and I'm speaking from personal experience. If you have a different experience, please share.

It does not minimize the gravity of what a molester does if the victim is asleep; however, one would think that not even being conscious when the touching was happening would be less traumatizing than remembering every detail. That's what I was saying...that the victims who were asleep don't remember the actual sexual contact because they were asleep.

Now, if you want to make an argument that the child is just as traumatized due to the knowledge of what happened (as opposed to an actual remembered experience) and due to the loss of privacy...or that imagination can be worse than actually knowing what happened, that might be a reasonable thing to argue. But you don't do yourself any favors by pretending that my statement was a justification of abuse...especially coming from a victim of childhood sexual abuse. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

I've tried to understand how your outrage over these incidents could lead you to make some pretty extreme statements about punishment of juvenile offenders & hope that you would extend the same courtesy to me about what I meant re: the impact upon the victims. Funny how being offended works...you've made TONS of comments that I've found offensive, but I've never been so presumptuous as to tell you (or anyone else) to stay out of threads/forums.

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Shit all over the place, and then cry foul when people call him on it, or refuse to take him seriously after stinking up each thread.
Dude, could you do everyone a favor & either hire an English translator or buy some kind of software that can put your thoughts into comprehensible form? Thanks in advance for doing a great service!

And could you give up the tag-team coattail approach & actually post some original thoughts (and perhaps even answer a question or two when called to explain yourself) instead of just posting "this" or "agreed"? I saw how seriously you were regarded by others when you were taken to task for some racial comments you made & you resorted to your usual defensiveness by attacking the other posters who called you out. I can understand why you resent others who point out your logical fallacies and numerous mistakes...as well as your default post of "bigot!" (your first words as a baby, evidently)...but just because you can't hold your own in a political or religious discussion but contradict yourself at every turn, don't shoot the messengers.

Just go back to school, join a debate club, do some research, and learn to man up and stand on your own. You'll feel better when you start doing that & might even contribute (you have made a bit of progress in other threads when you aren't patting yourself on the back, so there's still hope that you can actually become a valuable contributor). Hey, at least you haven't been exiled again (that was pretty slick for someone who'd only been a member for a few months).

But that's up to you. If all you can do is spew hatred, it's a free country. Just hate to see someone waste the opportunity to do more than call names.

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-24-15 at 07:38 PM.
Old 05-24-15, 07:06 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by dsa_shea View Post
This guy is not going to be punished for what he did but the show should be off the air and they will hopefully shove the crap that they have been preaching right back down their own throats. They talk about how sex is so bad but yet have a gang of kids. Also, the hatred for gay people and saying that they need to be watched so the kids won't be molested is sickening.
The show IS off the air...at least for now. That's what was on today's Yahoo messages. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/tlc-...t-josh-duggar/

Never seen an episode, so please explain what they say about sex "being bad." If they're talking about premarital sex, how is it hypocritical to say that sex is for marriage and then enjoy the sexual act fully? That's entirely consistent with those who want to wait until marriage.

And what have they said on the show about hating "gay people?" Is that seriously something that TLC has aired?

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-24-15 at 07:45 PM.
Old 05-24-15, 07:24 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
That being said, I just wanted to point out that treatment of juvenile sex offenders (under age 16 at least) is night and day from the treatment of adult sex offenders... probably for pretty good reason.
Sad that your entire excellent post (which included much criticism of the Duggars) which is very educational & describes the reality of the penal system re: juvenile offenders (and the intent to rehabilitate) has just made you a "defender" of child molesters by the standards of some posters here.

But thanks for trying to shed some light & reason on a volatile topic.
Old 05-24-15, 07:54 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
That being said, I just wanted to point out that treatment of juvenile sex offenders (under age 16 at least) is night and day from the treatment of adult sex offenders... probably for pretty good reason.


I think the travesty of the situation was the girls did not receive treatment, and Josh did not receive treatment/punishment then. They both may benefit from treatment now, but punishing him currently (outside of the cancellation of the TV show), especially if he has not re-offended, would be asinine.
Old 05-24-15, 08:03 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
When I was a teenager, two junior high boys (one the leader, the other a follower) took two girls into an outbuilding and convinced two teen or preteen girls (all of them were 12-13 at the time) to disrobe. One girl had a big crush on the leader & would do anything to gain his attention, and her friend was also a follower. The rumor (pretty much verified) was that some touching went on, too. Neither boy was arrested & all of the families stayed in the community, although it was a brief scandal. The point is that the boys weren't trusted to be alone with the neighborhood girls, the girls in question were put on a short leash, and the families evidently avoided each other. Nobody was ridden out of town on a rail, and nobody lost jobs.

So it's the girl's fault, right?
Old 05-24-15, 08:09 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

The saddest thing is that those girls are being put thru all this crap again.
Old 05-24-15, 08:13 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
The show IS off the air...at least for now. That's what was on today's Yahoo messages. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/tlc-...t-josh-duggar/

Never seen an episode, so please explain what they say about sex "being bad." If they're talking about premarital sex, how is it hypocritical to say that sex is for marriage and then enjoy the sexual act fully? That's entirely consistent with those who want to wait until marriage.

And what have they said on the show about hating "gay people?" Is that seriously something that TLC has aired?
So you really know nothing about the people you've been pontificating about for 7 pages? Shocked,
Old 05-24-15, 08:45 PM
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Re: 19 Kids and Diddling - Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Accusations

Not all hatred is accompanied by anger. Politely worded propaganda, such as "defense of marriage" is civil discrimination. It's the modern day "criminal skull shape" argument. They're more civil than the Westboro Baptist Church. But their message and agenda is part of the same collective.

The Duggar family markets themselves in a certain way. And they profit from it. And they're provocative with their support of conservative values (including being used by politicians to forward a collective agenda). And so, when something like this happens, it's just that they're criticized in return. In this case, any criticism and anger directed towards them is valid.

And there seems to be a recurring (though unrepresentative) trend among conservatives. The stronger the narrative someone creates for themselves, the more they're trying to escape some kind of personal demon (whether thoughts-only, or have acted on it). You go to the most vocally anti-gay politician, pundit or celebrity, and that's the guy who really has something dark going on inside.

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