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Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

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Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Old 05-21-13, 02:54 PM
  #126  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by pinata242 View Post
You've clearly crossed all the Is and dotted all the Ts. Please bring your business model to my state, save everyone's life, and start your dynasty.
Just posting what many parents around the country are thinking. I just happen to work for a public school system for 14 years. I can even interpret the district's budget priorities for you.
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Old 05-21-13, 03:03 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Just posting what many parents around the country are thinking. I just happen to work for a public school system for 14 years. I can even interpret the district's budget priorities for you.
And the reports even last night when I willfully stopped paying attention indicated the kids drowned. I heard first there was a water tower that spilled in, but I know there wasn't one nearby. The water mains mentioned above adds up.

I personally don't know if PT had a basement as I've heard mention, but if it did and the kids were in there, what's your point again?
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Old 05-21-13, 03:07 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

A proper tornado shelter wouldn't have water mains in it? I'm wondering what exactly your point is arguing with me about an obvious concern?
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Old 05-21-13, 03:08 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by pinata242 View Post
I personally don't know if PT had a basement as I've heard mention, but if it did and the kids were in there, what's your point again?
His point is, "Why the fuck can't you guys build water mains that are protected from tornadoes you know are bound to happen?!?"
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Old 05-21-13, 03:13 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Do residential shelters have water mains running through them? Is this whats called "victory through obfuscation?" I don't know why its so hard to admit, "yeah, we should probably build structures for the little kiddies to shelter in."
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Old 05-21-13, 03:22 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

The school did not have a basement according to the superintendent at a press conference this afternoon. The schools need to retrofit or build new safe room cafeterias or gymnasiums like some of the new schools have.
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Old 05-21-13, 03:28 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Cusm View Post
The school did not have a basement according to the superintendent at a press conference this afternoon. The schools need to retrofit or build new safe room cafeterias or gymnasiums like some of the new schools have.
No, nothing but a storm shelter will do .. .he who knows all has spoken .. no other structure will ever protect anyone from a tornado ... though maybe the district should build a rocket and send all the kids in space above the tornado. Hmmmmm
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Old 05-21-13, 07:15 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

NBC Nightly News addressed the issue of safe rooms in homes, schools, and the community on tonight's edition. The cost of a safe room/storm shelter, which has to be above ground due to the water in the ground and clay nature which leads to flooding & mold, is $8-10k per home. The state holds a lottery each year to provide funding to homeowners for safe rooms. This past year 500 people were awarded funding out of 16,000 applicants.

They are putting safe rooms in schools but at a cost of $1.4 million per school (you read that right) they cannot do all at once.

The city of Moore elected not to build a storm shelter for the community due to the statistical probability of such a catastrophic storm being 1-2%.
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Old 05-21-13, 08:41 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
The school district did have the cash to build this:

They also had the money to buy these:



And these:



What the hell were they thinking.

----

I'm sure these people know the dangers of living in such an area, and sometimes, the worst happens. Should we make California or the entire West Coast Earthquake-Safe? I can just imagine what would happen if an entire neighborhood in Southern Ca got hit with an earthquake, and thousands died.

We'd be back here with our little engineering ideas and political jabs.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 05-21-13 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 05-21-13, 09:17 PM
  #135  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by RagingBull80 View Post
Anyone heard or seen activity from Applejack? He lives in Moore. Hope he's okay.

My wife and kids were at her dad's which is one mile north of where everything went to hell. I was stuck in the city and couldn't join them until after it was all over.

We live in Norman and 35 is a mess. I drove through last night and today, the TV coverage can't prepare you for the devastation of seeing it in person. It's truly awing.

I've never been affected so much by an event like this.

Hope all of our Moore people out there are okay.
I'm doing well, thanks for asking.

I live off of 4th street between Bryant and Sunnylane in Moore in the Rock Creek addition. Listening at work in downtown OKC, they were saying that the tornado was headed straight to that location, but obviously I couldn't beat the tornado there to pick up the pets.

On the way home, the weathermen were saying that the neighborhood was destroyed so I was expecting our house to be reduced to rubble and our two dogs to be dead. I had to park about 2 miles away from home and ran most of the way to the house in my work suit. Fortunately, as I got close I could see that our house was likely still standing, and hopefully only merely damaged. When I finally got there, it was still standing and looks to be unharmed. Houses at the end of our street are pretty damaged, but it appears to have missed us by a few hundred yards.

My son was at my mother in laws about 1 1/2 miles southeast of us and he was fine because they have a shelter and the storm didn't get there. My wife was okay because she was at work in NW OKC. My dad lives behind the high school and his house is fine. Unfortunately, my wife's aunt lived by Plaza Towers elementary, so their house is gone. Luckily they are fine and their dog survived in the rubble.

Power's still out at the house, so we are at the in-laws but all-in-all we are very fortunate.
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Old 05-21-13, 09:20 PM
  #136  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Great to hear, AJ. My brother lives on Julies Trail in that addition as well as at least one fellow MHS alum. They also have no obvious damage to their homes.
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Old 05-21-13, 09:52 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Hey, AppleJack. About 30 minutes ago that HS friend I mentioned said on Facebook that the power at 4th & Sunnylane is back on. I told my brother who called his house and got his Cox phone to ring instead of going straight to voicemail.

Might wanna check it out!
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Old 05-21-13, 10:01 PM
  #138  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
What I heard over and over again from people familiar with large tornados is that the only truly safe place is under ground. And if private residences can have underground shelters, a public school should as well.
With respect, if you've heard "from people" but are disregarding comments made by folks who live there and who have been on the ground in places like Moore and Joplin (like me), then you really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

But if you're clinging to your misinformed second-hand opinion in order to win points and thereby make this about YOU and not about the victims and survivors in Oklahoma.... okay, fine.

You're right.

Now let it go. Please.
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Old 05-21-13, 10:03 PM
  #139  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

We are back home tonight with power and water. I am helping my aunt pack and move stuff out of her house tomorrow. Her house is there but heavily damaged, she has roof damage but it is on, next door half their roof is gone. It is so crazy how tornados can bounce around.
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Old 05-21-13, 10:06 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by pinata242 View Post
Hey, AppleJack. About 30 minutes ago that HS friend I mentioned said on Facebook that the power at 4th & Sunnylane is back on. I told my brother who called his house and got his Cox phone to ring instead of going straight to voicemail.

Might wanna check it out!
Two years ago the phones in Joplin were all funky as well. Cell voice service was out, but SMS worked sporadically. Local land lines were out, as were outward long distance lines, but incoming long distance calls seemed to be unaffected. When my sister's family (Joplin southside) was unsuccessful in reaching my mom (Joplin northside) or me (Indiana), they managed to get a text out to me... I had no difficult at all in getting mom's phone to ring.

If you're having similar difficulties, its not without precedent. If there's anything I or any other out-of-region Otter can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask.
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Old 05-21-13, 10:10 PM
  #141  
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Cusm View Post
We are back home tonight with power and water. I am helping my aunt pack and move stuff out of her house tomorrow. Her house is there but heavily damaged, she has roof damage but it is on, next door half their roof is gone. It is so crazy how tornados can bounce around.
Stuff can be replaced. Glad to hear she's okay and that you're able to help. Big thumbs-up!

Not sure if you're planning or able to do any clean-up volunteer work, but if you do don't skimp on being prepared... steel-toes shoes, leather gloves, respirator, hard hat, long sleeves, etc etc.
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Old 05-21-13, 10:12 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by pinata242 View Post
Hey, AppleJack. About 30 minutes ago that HS friend I mentioned said on Facebook that the power at 4th & Sunnylane is back on. I told my brother who called his house and got his Cox phone to ring instead of going straight to voicemail.

Might wanna check it out!
Thanks for the info! I will probably ride it out at the in laws until tomorrow since our 9 month old is already in bed
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Old 05-21-13, 10:19 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
Thanks Doc
We did next to nothing of significance. We are in mid-north OKC so everything we saw was minor injuries and they all went home same day. Those people at OU Medical Center, Children's Hospital, Southwest Medical Center and Norman Regional did the brunt of the work.

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I have a couple of questions:

- Why was school in session at all given the forecast? Even up here, we were seeing forecasts for major events. And parents knowing the school had no shelter and they still sent their kids there? I don't get it.

- Why is it "too expensive" to build an underground shelter for children? It sickens me that even after 1999, these schools were thought to be safe and the plan is the same thing we have here for hurricanes - to face the wall in the hallway. Ridiculous.
As mentioned, there is no possible way to cancel school for a forecast like this. School would literally be cancelled for weeks in April and May. As far as the not having underground shelters in the schools, THAT absolutely needs to happen.

One thing that is kind of cool. My cousin has this side business grilling onion burgers. THEY ARE PHENOMENAL. I help when I can. He is pretty good friend's with someone in the governor's family and they set up a place in Moore tomorrow at the outskirts of the recovery effort for us to prepare food for anybody that needs it and first responders. We pattied 1800 hamburgers and chopped 250 lbs of onions tonight to take down there tomorrow. Have about 15-20 people going to do this. Idea literally popped up around 1:00 pm this afternoon and by the time we were done prepping the food, had $10,000 of donations to pay for the food, which is way more than needed. Rest will go to Red Cross.

That's is just how this community is. I am sure other places are like this but this is all I know. The people here are simply amazing. Obviously, I will never forget the OKC bombing. I was a senior in medical school which is less than a mile from the federal building. My apartment was 4 blocks from the building. My wife and I drove down 5th street every single day on our way to class, right past the Murrah building. Drove past it that morning at around 8:10, less than an hour before the bomb went off.

That event has changed OKC forever, obviously, and in some ways for the better. It has really galvanized this community. The hospitals and emergency response systems are as good or better than any in the country at being prepared for these kinds of things, and a lot of it stems from the 1995 bombing. And the willingness of people to help is second to none. Truly amazing place.

Last edited by SoonerDoc; 05-21-13 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 05-21-13, 10:31 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by SoonerDoc View Post
One thing that is kind of cool. My cousin has this side business grilling onion burgers. THEY ARE PHENOMENAL. I help when I can. He is pretty good friend's with someone in the governor's family and they set up a place in Moore tomorrow at the outskirts of the recovery effort for us to prepare food for anybody that needs it and first responders. We pattied 1800 hamburgers and chopped 250 lbs of onions tonight to take down there tomorrow. Have about 15-20 people going to do this. Idea literally popped up around 1:00 pm this afternoon and by the time we were done prepping the food, had $10,000 of donations to pay for the food, which is way more than needed. Rest will go to Red Cross.

That's is just how this community is. I am sure other places are like this but this is all I know. ... the willingness of people to help is second to none. Truly amazing place.
There's just something inherently decent found in the folks who call "flyover country" home. You see it in the aftermath of tornadoes, you see it following floods, you see it just about every where you look - people looking out for those who need help.

The rest of the country could take a lesson from those who live along the I-44 corridor.
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Old 05-21-13, 11:29 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by kenbuzz View Post
There's just something inherently decent found in the folks who call "flyover country" home. You see it in the aftermath of tornadoes, you see it following floods, you see it just about every where you look - people looking out for those who need help.

The rest of the country could take a lesson from those who live along the I-44 corridor.
I feel the same way growing up in Iowa and now living in Minnesota. Especially when the winter storms hit. I can't tell you how many cars I've helped push over the years. Helped sandbag during the Des Moines floods of 1993. Always donate when I can to the relief efforts.

I think we realize that we're all in this shit together so we might as well help each other out.
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Old 05-21-13, 11:53 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by SoonerDoc View Post
One thing that is kind of cool. My cousin has this side business grilling onion burgers. THEY ARE PHENOMENAL. I help when I can. He is pretty good friend's with someone in the governor's family and they set up a place in Moore tomorrow at the outskirts of the recovery effort for us to prepare food for anybody that needs it and first responders. We pattied 1800 hamburgers and chopped 250 lbs of onions tonight to take down there tomorrow. Have about 15-20 people going to do this. Idea literally popped up around 1:00 pm this afternoon and by the time we were done prepping the food, had $10,000 of donations to pay for the food, which is way more than needed. Rest will go to Red Cross.
That is cool. Good for him. I have to confess that until this month I've never donated money before (yes, I'm a real Scrooge), but when I read about what happened to those poor girls who were kidnapped in Cleveland, I felt SO bad for all the horrible things they went through for so many years, I donated to their fund. It felt good to help. I will be donating to the Red Cross, too.
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Old 05-22-13, 07:34 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Nefarious View Post
NBC Nightly News addressed the issue of safe rooms in homes, schools, and the community on tonight's edition. The cost of a safe room/storm shelter, which has to be above ground due to the water in the ground and clay nature which leads to flooding & mold, is $8-10k per home. The state holds a lottery each year to provide funding to homeowners for safe rooms. This past year 500 people were awarded funding out of 16,000 applicants.

They are putting safe rooms in schools but at a cost of $1.4 million per school (you read that right) they cannot do all at once.

The city of Moore elected not to build a storm shelter for the community due to the statistical probability of such a catastrophic storm being 1-2%.
People who keep saying "they should have basements" really need to drop it. They are just not practical in north texas or Oklahoma. The soil won't allow it. And by allow I mean, sure anything is possible, but the cost is realistically prohibitive.

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
They also had the money to buy these:



And these:



What the hell were they thinking.

----

I'm sure these people know the dangers of living in such an area, and sometimes, the worst happens. Should we make California or the entire West Coast Earthquake-Safe? I can just imagine what would happen if an entire neighborhood in Southern Ca got hit with an earthquake, and thousands died.

We'd be back here with our little engineering ideas and political jabs.
You mean California and its country like economy doesn't have the money to protect its own people from an earthquake?
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Old 05-22-13, 07:42 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Drove down to Austin yesterday for DMB concert. It is an outdoor venue and they postponed the show to tonight. It hardly rained and little wind. I'm sure they did that out of an abundance of caution from Oklahoma.

But that's the thing a lot of people don't realize. A good weather person could say "for sure" something will happen and the storm suddenly collapse and we get nothing. And there are time when sever weather happened in minutes catching everyone off guard. I remember a storm coming up almost instantly in the mid-90's catching people at an outdoor fair. Many were hurt from the hail. That's right they were at an out door fair and got caught in a thunderstorm, it can happen just that fast.

http://www.weather.com/encyclopedia/...r/ftworth.html
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Old 05-22-13, 08:07 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
When I finally got there, it was still standing and looks to be unharmed. Houses at the end of our street are pretty damaged, but it appears to have missed us by a few hundred yards.
That's pretty amazing. Shows just how narrow and random it is.
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Old 05-22-13, 08:31 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Here's a bit of independent research and science from The Earth Story on Facebook:



The bedrock and soils of Oklahoma City

Following the large tornado this week that struck Moore, the suburb of Oklahoma City, many press reports and individual accounts said that in this particular area, some houses are built on such thin soil layers that basements and in-ground storm shelters can be difficult to construct. Obviously there will be some variability in what every house sits on, but hearing this explanation motivated me to go through some of the details on where Oklahoma City actually sits and what it sits on.

Oklahoma City is in the central part of the state of Oklahoma. Average rainfalls decrease across the state from East to West, with the portion near OKC receiving an average of about 90 centimeters of rain per year. While this isn’t an enormous amount of rain, it is substantially greater than the Western side of the state, which receives half that amount.

The rocks that underlie Oklahoma City fall in-between two different provinces in the state. To the East, the Ouachita Mountains and the Ozark uplift form high ground, and to the West, there sits a deep, sediment-filled basin known as the Anadarko basin, which began forming in the Cambrian period. From that time, occasional encroachments of seawater allowed deposition of flat-lying sediments across the central portions of Oklahoma between these two provinces.

Oklahoma City sits mostly on top of bedrock that is Permian in age (300-250 million years old) and is considered part of the “Cherokee Platform”; a flat sequence of sediments at moderate elevation sitting in the central and northern parts of the state.

The Permian rocks Oklahoma City sits on are made up largely of shales and sandstones, deposited in a shallow marine setting. The source for the sediments that made up these rocks was probably fairly local, mostly supplied from the hills mentioned earlier. Sandstone in particular is not an ideal rock to have for developing soils. It is difficult to erode, particularly in dry climates, and in this area leads to topography that is described as rolling.

The ecological description of the area around Oklahoma City is the “Cross Timbers” province or the “Cross Timbers transitional” zone, dominated by grasslands with occasional trees.

The soils in the area are classified as “alfisols” and “inceptisols”. Both of these soil types can be associated with dry to moderate climates. Alfisols are clay rich soils produced by some degree of erosion of the rocks. The soils contain clay but still contain other elements like magnesium and calcium, which can be removed by rain in wetter environments, making them generally good soils for cultivation. Inceptisols are more primitive soils, formed from lesser degrees of alteration. They tend to be thin and haven’t had enough exposure to the elements to form clay minerals.

Those are the basic ingredients making up Oklahoma City’s ground. The soils are variable in thickness, in part because of what they sit on. If houses are being built on sandstones, they may be sitting on thinner inceptisols, since sandstones can be difficult to erode and form soils on top of. Other areas may have an easier time of building storm shelters if they sit on thicker, older soils, but the clay and rock mixtures in those spots could create some issues for digging.

Since the rocks are flat lying, and there are years with limited precipitation, the soils in these areas can also be unstable. If they’re disturbed, as much of the area has been by man, that can lead to increased erosion and thinning of the soils as well.

So, that’s a summary of the ground beneath Oklahoma City. Nearly flat, marine sediments, combined with a semi-arid climate, grasslands, some soil formation but not extensive. Some places probably capable of building storm shelters, but some places might just have too strong of bedrock. In any case, the soil characteristics are not the only issue related to the building of basements and storm shelters; local laws and building codes go into making those decisions as well.

-JBB

Lots of sources to cite here:
Soil map of Oklahoma:
http://www.ogs.ou.edu/pubsscanned/EP...oil_veg_cl.pdf

Ecoregions of Oklahoma:
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Ecore...29?topic=49597

Ecoregions Map:
http://www.epa.gov/wed/pages/ecoregions/ok_eco.htm

Geologic map and history of Oklahoma:
http://www.ogs.ou.edu/pubsscanned/EP9_2-8geol.pdf

Alfisols:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfisols

Inceptisols:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inceptisols

Major Geologic Provinces of Oklahoma:
http://www.ogs.ou.edu/MapsBasic/Provinces_crosssec.pdf

Image credit: FEMA image from Moore, OK, photo by Win Henderson
http://www.fema.gov/photolibrary/pho...ls.do?id=44311

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/20...basements?lite
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