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Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

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Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Old 05-21-13, 11:41 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Sheeeeit, they just built a hockey arena on a former site that swallowed a building in a sink hole near me. Manhattan is an island with an entire infrastructure under ground.
So you refute conditions in tornado alley by citing two examples nowhere near tornado alley?
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Old 05-21-13, 11:52 AM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by sydonesia View Post
And while I'm very pleased to hear that, it doesn't really sit right with me that apparently a great number of people were listed as "dead" even though they weren't just to give the media a number to tout as if showing all this destruction wasn't bad enough. I just hope some families weren't told their child was dead prematurely, though I have a bad feeling that was probably the case in a few instances.
Before you break out the pitchforks, it sounds like the main issue was that some people were counted twice in the confusion. And the number of deaths is the #1 thing to report in this situation, as the first thing most people who hear about the tornado think is "I wonder how many people died."
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Old 05-21-13, 12:05 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
It's not impossible. It's just expensive.
There are a LOT of things that aren't impossible, like building schools out of titanium or putting jet engines and helicopter rotors on all of them so they can just fly out of the way of oncoming tornados.

You can mitigate risk, but you can never completely eliminate it. Spending more money in an attempt solve an insolvable problem just to gain a few more fractions of a percentage point of safety just is not cost effective... not when those same dollars can be spent elsewhere to increase health or safety via other means.



To use made-up numbers, one can spend your resources to get to the bend in the curve and be 95% effective - or can spend three times as much to add another 2-3%. Most would rather protect 95% of the children in three schools than 97-98% of the children in one and none in the other two. Fortunately, F4/F5 tornados making dead-on hits on in-session schools is such a rare event that I don't recall it having happened since 1974 in Xenia, Ohio.

Last edited by kenbuzz; 05-21-13 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:12 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

By that logic, you wouldn't build schools with earthquake safeguards or schools with sprinkler systems or have AED's in school hallways. Small amounts of risk are mitigated all the time. In this case, a highly dense area known for horrendous tornados does not bother to equip schools with any sort of shelter is unfathomable to me. In this case, the risk was realized and a lot of small children lost their lives. They had ample time to get somewhere safe but that place did not exist.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:16 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
By that logic, you wouldn't build schools with earthquake safeguards or schools with sprinkler systems or have AED's in school hallways. Small amounts of risk are mitigated all the time. In this case, a highly dense area known for horrendous tornados does not bother to equip schools with any sort of shelter is unfathomable to me. In this case, the risk was realized and a lot of small children lost their lives. They had ample time to get somewhere safe but that place did not exist.
And it could have destroyed a movie theater full of hundreds of people on a weekend, or a mall, or a basketball arena, or .....

Is every California school is properly built to avoid a major earthquake should one occur?
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Old 05-21-13, 01:18 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
By that logic, you wouldn't build schools with earthquake safeguards or schools with sprinkler systems or have AED's in school hallways. Small amounts of risk are mitigated all the time. In this case, a highly dense area known for horrendous tornados does not bother to equip schools with any sort of shelter is unfathomable to me. In this case, the risk was realized and a lot of small children lost their lives. They had ample time to get somewhere safe but that place did not exist.

They do build schools with safeguards against tornadoes, just not the one safeguard that you think solves every problem. At least with new construction they are built to withstand very high winds ... at least here the entire building needs to be able to withstand 100MPH winds and safe locations higher (cannot find the exact amount) ... this was an extraordinary tornado.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:21 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

What I heard over and over again from people familiar with large tornados is that the only truly safe place is under ground. And if private residences can have underground shelters, a public school should as well.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:30 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

The school did have a basement, which did not help
And seven students were dead.
"Some of the children drowned because they were in the basement area, water came in," Lt. Gov. Todd Lamb told CNN.
and any schools build after 1999 are built with shelters, which may or may not have helped if there was sufficient warning

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/21/us/okl...ornado-school/
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Old 05-21-13, 01:31 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

The school district did have the cash to build this:

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Old 05-21-13, 01:32 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

http://www.theatlantic.com/technolog...lahoma/276073/

To the question of whether it's even possible to build a tornado-proof house, the Wind Institute offered the following reply: "You can, but your neighbors probably would not like it in their neighborhood and you would need some of Bill Gates's wealth to pay for it."
Yeah, that sounds exactly like a sprinkler system.

The relative dearth of storm cellars in Oklahoma comes down, as things so often do, to environmental factors. The soil in the state is composed largely of clay -- and that's particularly true in central Oklahoma, where Moore is located. ("Soils in the Central Rolling Red Prairies," geologists at Oklahoma State put it (pdf), "are dark and loamy with clayey to loamy subsoils developed on Permian shales, mudstones, sandstones and/or alluvial deposits under tall grasses.")

The ground in central Oklahoma tends to be soft and moist -- right down to the bedrock that sits, generally, some 20 to 100 feet below the surface.

Here's the problem with that when it comes to building basements and underground shelters: Clay is particularly fickle as a foundation for construction. When loamy soils absorb rainwater, they expand. And when the weather's dry, they contract. This inevitable and yet largely unpredictable variability makes basement-building a particular challenge, since it makes it nearly impossible to establish firm foundations for underground construction.

And while above-ground homes can be built on these somewhat shaky foundations, adding the element of open space in the form of a basement is a nearly impossible feat of engineering. There is a chance your house, its basement surrounded by glorified mud, will eventually simply topple into itself.

Last edited by RoyalTea; 05-21-13 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:33 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Thanks, Obama.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:33 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

I think I'm heading down to the Red Cross after I get off work. I'm sure they'll have something for me to do.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:38 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Yeah, that sounds exactly like a sprinkler system.
Who's talking about a tornado proof house? I know it may be difficult but imagine this in a larger scale.



Mind. Blown.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:39 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
We wound up hiding under a highway overpass on the Kansas Turnpike and praying we wouldn't be killed.
By the way, a highway overpass is one of the worst places to be in a tornado.

I assume you were in your car? And someone chose to have you all leave your vehicle -- a reinforced steel cage which can easily outrun a tornado -- to stop and fully expose you and your family to the elements and flying debris. And I know that is what most people think is safe to do. That is why education is the most important part of any disaster plan.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:46 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by RagingBull80 View Post
I think I'm heading down to the Red Cross after I get off work. I'm sure they'll have something for me to do.
I would imagine they need people to help sort through all the rubble. They were talking about going through it all piece by piece and making sure photos and personal documents were not being thrown away so they can eventually find their owners again. I think that's a noble effort and little things like that can mean a lot to someone who thought they lost everything.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:48 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

They were turning people away yesterday.
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Old 05-21-13, 01:49 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by EddieMoney View Post
Serious question: Were you inspired by Twister?
no.. i wanted to be a weatherman my whole life and study hurricanes and tornados for the weather channel... didnt want to pursue it though
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Old 05-21-13, 01:49 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Numanoid View Post
By the way, a highway overpass is one of the worst places to be in a tornado.

I assume you were in your car? And someone chose to have you all leave your vehicle -- a reinforced steel cage which can easily outrun a tornado -- to stop and fully expose you and your family to the elements and flying debris. And I know that is what most people think is safe to do. That is why education is the most important part of any disaster plan.

She said it was when she was a child (she's still a child at heart, perhaps that's where the confusion set in) and I believe the directives back in the day actually advised seeking shelter under an overpass. Obviously the knowledge we have today says differently. I don't think she was advocating that as a current tornado avoidance policy.

It's too bad it doesn't work, though. We could just build all schools under an overpass.
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Old 05-21-13, 02:02 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Who's talking about a tornado proof house? I know it may be difficult but imagine this in a larger scale.



Mind. Blown.
You've clearly crossed all the Is and dotted all the Ts. Please bring your business model to my state, save everyone's life, and start your dynasty.
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Old 05-21-13, 02:05 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by pinata242 View Post
You've clearly crossed all the Is and dotted all the Ts.
You probably did it on purpose...but it made me think of this:

3r35kp
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Old 05-21-13, 02:14 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

How did that school basement flood? Water from a flash flood?
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Old 05-21-13, 02:20 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

I'm sure it was flash flooding and there may have been debris blocking the exit making it impossible to get out.
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Old 05-21-13, 02:21 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Nefarious View Post
She said it was when she was a child (she's still a child at heart, perhaps that's where the confusion set in) and I believe the directives back in the day actually advised seeking shelter under an overpass. Obviously the knowledge we have today says differently. I don't think she was advocating that as a current tornado avoidance policy.

It's too bad it doesn't work, though. We could just build all schools under an overpass.


Yes, this happened in 1976, the Bicentennial summer. Don't think I didn't want to put the pedal to the metal. But I wasn't driving ...
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Old 05-21-13, 02:21 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by RagingBull80 View Post
I think I'm heading down to the Red Cross after I get off work. I'm sure they'll have something for me to do.
They would be able to find something for you to do to help. I called my local RC to see if I could volunteer to go since I am an RN. Told me since it is in a different region, I would have to be pre-oriented with them. They said if it was a local issue, they would consider me a "spontaneous" volunteer, and I could help out.
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Old 05-21-13, 02:35 PM
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Re: Moore,OK (same place that got hit in 1999) hit by tornado

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
How did that school basement flood? Water from a flash flood?
Water mains broke.
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