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Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

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Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Old 08-21-12, 07:01 AM
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Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

The casino is suing the card manufacturer, and the players who won lots of money, because the casino employees didn't shuffle the cards, which allowed the players to win 41 times in a row.

This has got to be about the most ridiculous lawsuit that I have ever heard about. Yes, I realize there are quite a few contenders in that contests, but this one is even dumber than the other dumb ones... I think.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ard_manuf.html

Golden Nugget suing card manufacturer after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

August 21, 2012

Associated Press

ATLANTIC CITY At first, it seemed like a coincidence, the kind of thing that happens from time to time at a casino, where the same number or same sequence of cards happens twice in a row.

But when the players at an April game of mini-baccarat at the Golden Nugget Atlantic City kept seeing the same sequence of cards dealt, over and over and over again, their eyes grew wide and their bets grew bigger, zooming from $10 a hand to $5,000.

Forty-one consecutive winning hands later, the 14 players had racked up more than $1.5 million in winnings surrounded by casino security convinced they had cheated but unable to prove how.

In a lawsuit against a Kansas City playing card manufacturer, the Golden Nugget contends the cards were unshuffled, despite being promised to be pre-shuffled and ready to use.


The April 30 incident was the latest instance of unshuffled cards causing big headaches for an Atlantic City casino. In December, the Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort used unshuffled mini-baccarat cards for 3 hours before realizing something was wrong. That episode led to a $91,000 fine against the casino, which fired nine people it said were involved.

It is so basic to the concept of gambling that it often goes without saying: the cards in the deck need to be shuffled before anyone uses them. But in the case of the Golden Nugget, the gamblers did nothing wrong, and deserve to be paid the nearly $1 million they still have coming to them, according to their lawyer, Benjamin Dash.

"The Golden Nugget appealed to gamblers to come in and play games licensed and sanctioned by the state of New Jersey," he said. "My clients did exactly that, and then were denied their winnings. There is absolutely no law in New Jersey that would permit the Golden Nugget to declare the game illegal because it failed to provide shuffled cards."

But in a lawsuit filed against the 14 gamblers in July, that is exactly what the casino seeks, citing state gambling regulations requiring all casino games to offer fair odds to both sides. The casino's lawsuit asserts the gamblers and the casino both began the game believing it was legal and proper until the players kept winning over and over again.

The Golden Nugget said it flooded the area with floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance and security officers, believing they were watching "a sophisticated swindling and cheating scheme" in progress.

"From the beginning to the end of play, however, plaintiff could not identify any particular act of those players that actually constituted swindling and cheating," the casino wrote in its lawsuit. Accordingly, it let nine of the players cash out $558,900 worth of chips. The other players still have $977,800 in chips that they have not yet cashed in.

The Golden Nugget also asserted in its lawsuit that Gemaco, Inc., a Missouri playing card manufacturer, acknowledged it had provided a defective shipment of cards that were not pre-shuffled. A message left at the company's administrative offices was not immediately returned Monday.

Three of the Golden Nugget gamblers have filed a counter-suit against the casino, alleging the gambling house discriminated against them based on their Chinese heritage. The three are from Atlantic City, Queens and Brooklyn, N.Y. One of them, Hua Shi of Brooklyn claims he was sleeping in his room at the casino when someone knocked on the door. When he answered, he was rushed by four Golden Nugget employees who pinned him against the wall and searched him and his belongings, according to his lawsuit. He said casino personnel held him in a room without food, water or an interpreter for eight hours. After a second search of his room, he was released, his lawsuit asserts.

The casino called the allegations in the gamblers' lawsuit "completely false."

"The Golden Nugget values all of its customers and would never discriminate against anyone, including the Asian community," it said in a statement. "In fact, the Golden Nugget designed and built an Asian gaming area and restaurant to specifically attract Asian guests to the casino. The countersuit has no merit and is nothing more than a ploy by the gamblers and their lawyers to tarnish the Golden Nugget's reputation in order to gain an economic advantage in the lawsuit. We will not let this happen."

Since the December incident with the mini-baccarat cards, the Trump Taj Mahal has installed a $2.2 million digital recording system which it says has greatly improved its surveillance capabilities, and the surveillance department has added eight officers.
Old 08-21-12, 08:00 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

I don't understand. Do they use a deck once, discard it, and open a new deck, unshuffled exactly the same way? That would be the only way it is the card company's fault, if it continued for 3+ hours.

It would seem after some number of cards are played, the deck should be reshuffled. In reality it should be reshuffled after every hand, as seeing cards already played changes the odds.
Old 08-21-12, 08:11 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by OldDude View Post
I don't understand. Do they use a deck once, discard it, and open a new deck, unshuffled exactly the same way? That would be the only way it is the card company's fault, if it continued for 3+ hours.
Yes, I think that is how it is played which is why they decided to bring the lawsuit.

Of course Grundle gets it wrong, but that isn't a surprise.
Old 08-21-12, 08:38 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

There is no way it is the card company's fault. Every deck is in the same order, because that's how they come off the press. Everyone knows that. If the dealers didn't shuffle the deck, they were poorly trained...by the Casino. Whoever heard of pre-shuffled cards?

and it took 41 hands for anyone at the casino to catch on... *eyeroll*
Old 08-21-12, 08:52 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger View Post
There is no way it is the card company's fault. Every deck is in the same order, because that's how they come off the press. Everyone knows that. If the dealers didn't shuffle the deck, they were poorly trained...by the Casino. Whoever heard of pre-shuffled cards?
Obviously you haven't.

In Baccarat, a deck of cards is only used once. Companies make pre-shuffled decks of cards specifically because of this...the dealer does not shuffle the cards.
Old 08-21-12, 08:54 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger View Post
There is no way it is the card company's fault. Every deck is in the same order, because that's how they come off the press. Everyone knows that. If the dealers didn't shuffle the deck, they were poorly trained...by the Casino. Whoever heard of pre-shuffled cards?

and it took 41 hands for anyone at the casino to catch on... *eyeroll*
If you read the article it says that the casino specifically ordered preshuffled decks. It sounds like the card manufacturer fucked up. I don't see why it took them so long to catch it or how it's the customers' fault though.
Old 08-21-12, 09:01 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by focker View Post
If you read the article it says that the casino specifically ordered preshuffled decks. It sounds like the card manufacturer fucked up. I don't see why it took them so long to catch it or how it's the customers' fault though.
Thank God I'm not the only one without a knee jerk reaction
Old 08-21-12, 09:38 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Jaymole View Post

In Baccarat, a deck of cards is only used once. Companies make pre-shuffled decks of cards specifically because of this...the dealer does not shuffle the cards.

I was not aware of that. Seems like an incredible waste to throw all those cards away after every game.

I still think these lawsuits are stupid.

Also, if the same cards in the same sequence appeared 41 times in a row, you'd think the dealers would catch on. I guess a person doesn't need to have an IQ above 75 to get a job as a card dealer.
Old 08-21-12, 09:40 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by focker View Post
If you read the article it says that the casino specifically ordered preshuffled decks.

I noticed that, but I thought it was silly. I still think it's silly. It's like ordering gum that's already been chewed.
Old 08-21-12, 09:51 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I noticed that, but I thought it was silly. I still think it's silly. It's like ordering gum that's already been chewed.
So you read that and since you thought it was silly, you decided to ignore it and create this thread based on the ridiculousness of the casino not shuffling the cards before dealing when in fact they were not supposed to.

Why you are still allowed to create threads amazes me.
Old 08-21-12, 09:52 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

They probably don't throw them away. Rather, they resell them in the casino store.
Old 08-21-12, 09:57 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
They probably don't throw them away. Rather, they resell them in the casino store.
unlikely with baccarat decks. you can fold the cards, bend them, tear them and pretty much do as you will with them since they are one use only. sure, the probably have some decks that are pristine, but it's not like a blackjack or pai gow poker deck, where the cards are in great condition.
Old 08-21-12, 10:09 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

If you sat down at a slot machine, and every time you pressed the button, you won - do you think you are entitled to all of the winnings? Obviously there is something wrong with the machine. I think they should go after the card manufacturers instead of the gamblers, but I'm assuming you aren't just allowed to take advantage of errors like this, especially when you are obviously aware of them.

I do love when grundle makes incorrect assumptions about stories. It's always entertaining.
Old 08-21-12, 10:10 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Seems like the lawsuit would not be worth the bad press.
Old 08-21-12, 10:16 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

I don't gamble but this is seriously retarded. People should boycott the Golden Nugget, go to papers, TV shows etc. The house makes millions and millions of dollars every month and they get bent out of shape when they get beat? Screw them! I hope Danny Ocean is seeing this!
Old 08-21-12, 10:21 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Why do baccarat cards only get used once? I am not a gambler so I am honestly curious.

I've also heard that baccarat is one of the only games in a typical casino that offers decent odds. I'm assuming that's because you have to know how to do more than pull a lever or spin a wheel.
Old 08-21-12, 11:03 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
I've also heard that baccarat is one of the only games in a typical casino that offers decent odds. I'm assuming that's because you have to know how to do more than pull a lever or spin a wheel.
Yes. You have to know that the cards in all of the decks are in the same order. If you can remember that, then you will win a million dollars and a free frisking by security. (Note: Frisking only available to Chinese customers.)
Old 08-21-12, 11:10 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
I've also heard that baccarat is one of the only games in a typical casino that offers decent odds. I'm assuming that's because you have to know how to do more than pull a lever or spin a wheel.
i am pretty sure, statistically speaking, it offers the best odds of any casino game.
Old 08-21-12, 11:18 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
If you sat down at a slot machine, and every time you pressed the button, you won - do you think you are entitled to all of the winnings? Obviously there is something wrong with the machine. I think they should go after the card manufacturers instead of the gamblers, but I'm assuming you aren't just allowed to take advantage of errors like this, especially when you are obviously aware of them.

I do love when grundle makes incorrect assumptions about stories. It's always entertaining.
If you sat down at a slot machine, and every time you pulled the lever you lost would they give you some of you money back?
Old 08-21-12, 11:20 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
i am pretty sure, statistically speaking, it offers the best odds of any casino game.
Yep, and is nearly as exciting as "coin toss."
Old 08-21-12, 11:24 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by shadowhawk2020 View Post
If you sat down at a slot machine, and every time you pulled the lever you lost would they give you some of you money back?
Of course not. Because that's how those machines work...a small ratio of payouts per pull.

If the machine malfunctions and gives you a million dollars every time you hit the button, you know it's not working correctly. That doesn't mean you get to keep hitting the button until the casino runs out of money.
Old 08-21-12, 11:41 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Of course not. Because that's how those machines work...a small ratio of payouts per pull.

If the machine malfunctions and gives you a million dollars every time you hit the button, you know it's not working correctly. That doesn't mean you get to keep hitting the button until the casino runs out of money.
But that doesn't jive with the story. According to the law the game has to have fair odds for both parties. If that is the case even if I don't get paid a good amount of money I should win more than 0 times in 20 pulls (for example) and if I don't you are saying I should get some money back, correct?

Also, if I were to hit the button and win $1 million dollars the machine wouldn't just give me a million. A casino rep would come over and check the machine and most likely they would invalidate the win. Happens every once in a while.

In this case the casino rep (the dealer) kept the game going, while the casino watched ( I assume they didn't stop the game sooner because they wanted to figure out how the gamblers were cheating.)

The real lawsuit should be against the card maker who didn't shuffle the decks, and the casino should fire the dealer for not notcing the pattern sooner.

Last edited by shadowhawk2020; 08-21-12 at 11:47 AM.
Old 08-21-12, 11:44 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

So, were the dealers NOT ALLOWED to shuffle the cards?

I suppose the casino orders pre-shuffled cards so they can move the games along faster, and make more money. That's the only reason I can think of to do that.

I was aware that most card games at casinos use fresh decks regularly. It makes sense, both to prevent cheating, and to keep the customers confident.
Old 08-21-12, 11:57 AM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Of course not. Because that's how those machines work...a small ratio of payouts per pull.

If the machine malfunctions and gives you a million dollars every time you hit the button, you know it's not working correctly. That doesn't mean you get to keep hitting the button until the casino runs out of money.
However, you do get to keep hitting the button until the machine runs out of money. They can't kick you off, at least in Nevada.
Old 08-21-12, 12:01 PM
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Re: Casino fles lawsuits after unshuffled cards lead to big winnings for gamblers

Originally Posted by shadowhawk2020 View Post
The real lawsuit should be against the card maker who didn't shuffle the decks, and the casino should fire the dealer for not notcing the pattern sooner.
Which is why I said they should go after the card maker. But I don't think the gamblers are allowed to take advantage of a "malfunction," whether it's a slot machine or a card game with a human dealer.

I'd be interested in seeing if there was any precedent for something like this. It's obviously a clearer issue when it's just a slot machine malfunctioning.

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