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Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

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Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Old 04-12-12, 01:28 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Cusm View Post
And thousands of dollars in lawyer and court fees.


Most states with conceal carry it is illegal to brandish a weapon; the law is written for use against loss of life not as crime deterant.
If you want to walk around with a gun and shoot people who "may" be threatening your life, you better be prepared for the circumstances that follow. We can't just have people walking around with guns, shooting people with no witnesses, and then claiming self defense. We'd have a lot of free cold-blooded murderers walking around.
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Old 04-12-12, 01:29 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
No, because if the other person has a weapon, I'd sat deadly force is appropriate.
Not sure I was clear. Say Travon is on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman pulls his gun and points it at Travon to get him to surrender, as it seems you previously said should bring an end to the altercation. Rather than surrendering, Travon fights on and attempts to take the gun away, potentially to use it against Zimmerman, while retaining physical control over the fight. Is the shooting justified?

I realize that's a lot of "ifs" but it's the story that must be disproved. The question is, if that is what transpired, is this still second degree murder?

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
We can't just have people walking around with guns, shooting people with no witnesses, and then claiming self defense.
That's typically where forensics help out. Most justifiable homicides don't present the opportunity to wait around for witnesses before you pull the trigger.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:02 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
In this situation, I think if Martin did attack him, merely pulling the gun and pointing it at him would have been enough to stop him.
And there is absolutely no way to know if that would have worked. You can't start making other rules like if you are getting beaten, but they haven't completely beat your ass yet, you have the right to pull a gun but not shoot it.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:02 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Good questions with no answers here. It all depends on what story you believe: one that Travon Martin was the aggressor getting up in the grill and assaulting some dude following him and questioning him or two that Zimmerman aggressively confronted Martin. The victim of the aggression has the right to claim self defense but only one of them had a weapon.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:03 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Dave99 View Post
And there is absolutely no way to know if that would have worked. You can't start making other rules like if you are getting beaten, but they haven't completely beat your ass yet, you have the right to pull a gun but not shoot it.
A shot to the leg would have stopped it. And sorry, I can't justify killing someone unless I am reasonably sure this person is going to kill me. I understand this threshold is lower or even nonexistent in other individuals.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:15 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
A shot to the leg would have stopped it. And sorry, I can't justify killing someone unless I am reasonably sure this person is going to kill me. I understand this threshold is lower or even nonexistent in other individuals.
You don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill or else you don't do it at all.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:15 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
A shot to the leg would have stopped it.
Yea, that works in the movies so why not in real life!
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Old 04-12-12, 02:17 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Because Travon is dead, there is only one story, and we can choose to believe it or not. I haven't heard another story. The only discrepancy I've heard among any possible witnesses is over who was screaming at the time of the shot.

I would ask, if everything transpired the way Zimmerman says it did, is he still guilty? Some here seem to support that view.

To speculate about what else could have happened is fine, but has no bearing on the case. If you want another story, you need evidence to support it. Otherwise you can choose to believe Travon is innocent by any lengths of the imagination about what could have occurred. The only story that needs to be validated or rejected is Zimmerman's. Without evidence to reject it, what choice do we have? Throw him in jail based on what might have happened? But if he's found to be lying, he is in a world of hurt. So any forensics that contradict his statements will certainly be interesting to see.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:17 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy View Post
His sombrero?
You sir made me spray carbonated beverage all over my computer........
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Old 04-12-12, 02:18 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
A shot to the leg would have stopped it. And sorry, I can't justify killing someone unless I am reasonably sure this person is going to kill me. I understand this threshold is lower or even nonexistent in other individuals.
oh jesus christ, lets all starting living by movie code now.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:20 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

No, movie code is people walking around with handguns like Yosemite Sam insisting that one deadly assault is just around the corner and I'm ready!! Douchebags like Zimmerman walk around with guns thinking they are tough guys. No other reason.

And let's face it. Zimmerman was packing. Got overwhelmed by a punk teenager and he had to kill him? That's HIS story. In a gated community no less. Fuck, you'd think this was a war zone in North Philly or something.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:25 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I would ask, if everything transpired the way Zimmerman says it did, is he still guilty? Some here seem to support that view.
I would say probably not. His story is that he just approached Martin and Martin attacked him. I find it hard to believe that there was no provocation.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:34 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I would ask, if everything transpired the way Zimmerman says it did, is he still guilty?
Depends on what picture of Trayvon I happen to be looking at.
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Old 04-12-12, 02:34 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

I have no doubt there was "provocation." The question is really the nature of that provocation. I honestly don't know what level of provocation would cause this to be murder. Calling him a skittle-toting doo doo head? Grabbing him by the hoodie? Tackling him? Throwing the first punch? Where is that line? Is that what determines whether this is murder or not?
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Old 04-12-12, 02:47 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
No, movie code is people walking around with handguns like Yosemite Sam insisting that one deadly assault is just around the corner and I'm ready!! Douchebags like Zimmerman walk around with guns thinking they are tough guys. No other reason.

And let's face it. Zimmerman was packing. Got overwhelmed by a punk teenager and he had to kill him? That's HIS story. In a gated community no less. Fuck, you'd think this was a war zone in North Philly or something.
Again, we don't know what happened. But a strong teenager could definitely kill someone with their fists. How many hits does Zimmerman have to take before the gun can come out?

I'm not willing to say one way or the other what should or could have happened. That's what got everyone into this mess with the media and public perception in the first place. I happen to trust that the police and lawyers and judges will do their jobs to figure out what really happened and go from there.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:00 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I have no doubt there was "provocation." The question is really the nature of that provocation. I honestly don't know what level of provocation would cause this to be murder. Calling him a skittle-toting doo doo head? Grabbing him by the hoodie? Tackling him? Throwing the first punch? Where is that line? Is that what determines whether this is murder or not?
I envision Martin walking through the neighborhood, Zimmerman getting out of the car to confront him. Martin says "get the fuck out of my face." Zimmerman grabs his arm or something. Martin gives him the beat down. Zimmerman murders him in "self defense."
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Old 04-12-12, 03:02 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Again, we don't know what happened. But a strong teenager could definitely kill someone with their fists. How many hits does Zimmerman have to take before the gun can come out?

I'm not willing to say one way or the other what should or could have happened. That's what got everyone into this mess with the media and public perception in the first place. I happen to trust that the police and lawyers and judges will do their jobs to figure out what really happened and go from there.
Agreed.

I just don't think handguns are the solution to every problem. Be a man. Are you insinuating that Travon Martin would have murdered Zimmerman? Or just given him a beating? Fuck, if everyone killed everyone that was kicking their ass, we'd live in a hell of a society.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:08 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

I think Prof. Turley does a nice job explaining why 2nd D Murder seems excessive here and how it's going to be difficult to make the case based on the legal precedents. Plus, I agree with him on Stand-Your-Ground laws....they are a relatively new phenomenon and I see little to no need for them. The common law self-defense doctrine has a long history in this country and it seemed to work quite well IMO.

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/12...degree-murder/
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Old 04-12-12, 03:10 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
Depends on what picture of Trayvon I happen to be looking at.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:15 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I would ask, if everything transpired the way Zimmerman says it did, is he still guilty? Some here seem to support that view.
Of 2nd degree murder? No way. Of manslaughter? Probably. Truth is if everything we've heard from Trayvon's side is true, I'm still not sure it meets the standard of 2nd degree murder. Either the prosecutor has a lot more evidence than we know about, or they're hoping for a plea down to manslaughter.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:17 PM
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re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arrested

Originally Posted by Shannon Nutt View Post
Of 2nd degree murder? No way. Of manslaughter? Probably. Truth is if everything we've heard from Trayvon's side is true, I'm still not sure it meets the standard of 2nd degree murder. Either the prosecutor has a lot more evidence than we know about, or they're hoping for a plea down to manslaughter.
His new layer seems to think Stand Your Ground may apply:

"If you can present evidence or at least your own testimony that (you) felt in fear that he was going to commit great bodily injury or death, that is what kicks in the statutory protection that you're allowed to respond with deadly force."
Of course I'm sure the argument will be made that Martin saw Zimmerman with the gun following him and thought the same. It will be interesting to see how this ends up..
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Old 04-12-12, 03:30 PM
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Re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arre

Originally Posted by Shannon Nutt View Post
Of 2nd degree murder? No way. Of manslaughter? Probably. Truth is if everything we've heard from Trayvon's side is true, I'm still not sure it meets the standard of 2nd degree murder. Either the prosecutor has a lot more evidence than we know about, or they're hoping for a plea down to manslaughter.
Bingo. Prosecutor can say that they tried by getting him arrested on 2nd degree murder and maybe Zimmerman cracks and pleas to manslaughter.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:34 PM
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Re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arre

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
if everyone killed everyone that was kicking their ass, we'd live in a hell of a society.
You mean a society where people don't kick one another's ass?
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Old 04-12-12, 03:34 PM
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Re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arre

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Bingo. Prosecutor can say that they tried by getting him arrested on 2nd degree murder and maybe Zimmerman cracks and pleas to manslaughter.
I think that's exactly what this prosecutor wants. Doesn't have to get their hands dirty and ends the media circus which will only get zanier with a trial. Should satisfy the Sharptons, Capeharts and the like. The media will soon forget about it. Whites will forget even faster.
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Old 04-12-12, 03:35 PM
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Re: Unarmed teen gets shot by overzealous neighborhood watch (Florida!)UPDATE: Z Arre

Zimmerman has plead not guilty, no surprise there.
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