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Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

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Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Old 04-15-11, 04:35 PM
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Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/15/news...dex.htm?hpt=T2
Old 04-15-11, 04:48 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Thank goodness that they're protecting me from making money.
Old 04-15-11, 04:49 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Change.
Old 04-15-11, 04:50 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

I was reading about that earlier.

They got the big ones on this crap.
Old 04-15-11, 05:06 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

I haven't played online in a few years and never very seriously, however that won't stop me from thanking Uncle Sam for protecting me from myself! God knows, we shouldn't have the freedom to do what we want with our money.
Old 04-15-11, 05:06 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

From the headline, my first though was, "Oh Jesus Christ, those assholes." However, if the allegations in the article are true, they had it coming.

The companies allegedly arranged for the money from U.S. gamblers to be disguised as payments to hundreds of non-existent online merchants for the purchase of jewelry and golf balls, according to the indictment.

"As charged, these defendants concocted an elaborate criminal fraud scheme, alternately tricking some U.S. banks and effectively bribing others to assure the continued flow of billions in illegal gambling profits," U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said in a statement.
I fully support online poker being legal and accessible to U.S. citizens (and heavily regulated and taxed), but the law is the law.
Old 04-15-11, 05:50 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

I have a $2500 check at home that I just got that is 100% gonna bounce.

I have another $2500 check on its way that will also bounce.

And $5500 in my stars account that I can't do anything with.

So I'm going to cancel my checks, have stars put the $5k in my account again.

And then sit and wait patiently and pray that the DoJ isn't a superior bag of cocks and will let me have my $10,500.
Old 04-15-11, 07:54 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Why not try to cash the checks? You don't know they will bounce.

It's sad that the government is being a bunch of dickbags about this. Totally the wrong way to go about this.
Old 04-15-11, 08:52 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Big Brother strikes again!!
Old 04-15-11, 10:25 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
It's sad that the government is being a bunch of dickbags about this. Totally the wrong way to go about this.
So they shouldn't go after companies that commit financial fraud and money laundering?

Obviously (especially considering the sub-forum that this is posted in), I expect some substantial bias in favor of these websites here, but these are very serious crimes they are accused of committing, even if the Feds drop the illegal gambling charges.
Old 04-15-11, 10:32 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

did I say that? no, of course not. but they are going about this completely wrong. instead of trying to work with these companies so they can set up proper ways to tax, etc., they are just going full speed by arresting first and asking questions later. it's a joke that there's no concerted effort by the government to do anything other than criminalize something that millions of people do already. the only difference is that people play the game in person rather than online.
Old 04-16-11, 12:19 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Does it matter that most home games don't cross state lines? I mean, I don't know where your tables are, but mine are well within the confines of this state. Could you make it a federal offense by placing your table right on the border?
Old 04-16-11, 12:19 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
So they shouldn't go after companies that commit financial fraud and money laundering?

Obviously (especially considering the sub-forum that this is posted in), I expect some substantial bias in favor of these websites here, but these are very serious crimes they are accused of committing, even if the Feds drop the illegal gambling charges.
The root of the problem is that an activity participated in by consenting adults is banned. You are just arguing that the arrests are fine, but completely ignoring everything that led to the arrests.
Old 04-16-11, 01:44 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
did I say that? no, of course not. but they are going about this completely wrong. instead of trying to work with these companies so they can set up proper ways to tax, etc., they are just going full speed by arresting first and asking questions later. it's a joke that there's no concerted effort by the government to do anything other than criminalize something that millions of people do already. the only difference is that people play the game in person rather than online.
Do you think that the United States government is some sort of homogeneous entity that has consistent and collective motives. The FBI does not "work with companies so they can set up proper ways to tax", they do not make laws or "criminalize" anything. Your last sentence also makes it clear that you are still considering this from the point of view of whether or not online poker should be legal. Millions of people do not commit financial fraud and money laundering.
Old 04-16-11, 01:51 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by Jeremy517 View Post
The root of the problem is that an activity participated in by consenting adults is banned. You are just arguing that the arrests are fine, but completely ignoring everything that led to the arrests.
The arrests are indeed fine and this is also a substantial matter of scale.

Let me draw an analogy to marijuana. Do you think it should be legal? I do, just as I think that in-person and online poker should be legal. However, what this case is about is not busting some guy with a stash in his linen closet or a small time local deal or dispensary operator.

If the DEA busted a large scale illegal marijuana smuggling operation that included, in addition to the obvious charges of possession with intent to distribute of large quantities of marijuana, smuggling charges, money laundering charges and a number of other felonies independent of the drug charges themselves, would you still think that justice was not being done just because you think pot should be legal? I wouldn't. I would seriously question your judgement if you did.
Old 04-16-11, 03:23 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
and a number of other felonies independent of the charges themselves
They're not independent. You can't have poker without having means to distribute the money to players. The sole reason that the money had to be laundered was because of the UIGEA.
Old 04-16-11, 04:43 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

yup

step 1) have moral majority morons in the house attach a bill as a rider to a bill that has no possibility of being rejected in order to make a perfectly fine activity illegal (UIGEA, 2006) and despite the fact that the merits of such a bill were never debated with proper procedures

step 2) pinch payment processors despite the fact that nobody can agree upon whether poker is a game of chance at all

step 3) force offshore companies like full tilt and pokerstars to mislead financial institutions because you fucked everything up unnecessarily in the first place

step 4) pinch the off shore sites

step 5) marketplace cleared, start your own

sure, the DoJ was adhering to the letter of the law but the moment you start allowing bullshit laws like this to be enforced -- especially considering the matter in which the law was created -- is the moment you've actually accepted that your role in this country is completely meaningless.

had this bill went through congress as a standalone bill and went through proper procedures that all bills go through and still resulted in generating UIGEA, then fine -- that's our process and we have to accept the results.

but to initiate a battle against personal freedoms with snake-in-the-grass bullshit and THEN go after companies doing the same to you because of your initial bullshit in the first place is enormously fucked up.
Old 04-16-11, 04:46 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

btw, "Payment processors", "poker sites", "individual players" and such are all one giant entity when it comes to the DoJ. When UIGEA was created, they targeted payment processors because

a) it's easier to pinch tens of payment processors than a few million individual players
b) it's easier to pinch domestic payment processors than offshore poker site owners/operators

just have to knock out one leg and the whole thing will fall apart.
Old 04-16-11, 05:01 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
The arrests are indeed fine and this is also a substantial matter of scale.

Let me draw an analogy to marijuana. Do you think it should be legal? I do, just as I think that in-person and online poker should be legal. However, what this case is about is not busting some guy with a stash in his linen closet or a small time local deal or dispensary operator.

If the DEA busted a large scale illegal marijuana smuggling operation that included, in addition to the obvious charges of possession with intent to distribute of large quantities of marijuana, smuggling charges, money laundering charges and a number of other felonies independent of the drug charges themselves, would you still think that justice was not being done just because you think pot should be legal? I wouldn't. I would seriously question your judgement if you did.
the criminalization of marijuana went through normal procedures in our congress to become a law

the criminalization of poker was attached by a politician pushing his own jesus-freak agenda on people to a bill on the 11th hour onto a bill that was never going to fail. A perfectly legal move but a total abuse of a legislative loophole. Riders don't exist to further your agendas on unrelated issues. But once the supreme court took away the ability for the president to line-item veto 15 years ago, it gave a green light for all sorts of bullshit riders. Mostly for pork spending or poison pills, but every now and then you get a bullshit law like this one coming through.

i dont fault the DoJ or FBI from doing their jobs. I fault the stupid fucks that allowed this sort of legislation to be attached and pushed through. I seriously hope Jon Kyl, Bill Frist, Robert Goodlatte, and Jim Leach die a slow miserable death when their time comes. That probably sounds extreme but these people have done more to damage individual freedom in this country than any convicted traitor ever has.
Old 04-16-11, 05:06 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

I really do hope that this is a "must get worse before they get better" scenario. The status quo of the cat-n-mouse games between the DoJ and poker sites and payment processors was one that was always going to eventually come crashing down. Now hopefully there's not only faster movement to get a US-based & sponsored system in place and hopefully it's a system that is financially reasonable to participate in.

My fear is that the states/fed government will step in and fuck things up either by segmenting the US player pool (think Californians only being able to play with other Californians) or by getting too greedy with how much rake/tax they want to charge. Both would be the final death blow to a reasonable online poker game that is still beatable by skilled individuals like myself.
Old 04-16-11, 11:30 AM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

I guess it makes total sense to not regulate & tax the online gambling industry, as the US couldn't possibly think of something to do with that revenue. very similar parallel to marijuana I guess.
Old 04-16-11, 03:42 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Do you think that the United States government is some sort of homogeneous entity that has consistent and collective motives. The FBI does not "work with companies so they can set up proper ways to tax", they do not make laws or "criminalize" anything. Your last sentence also makes it clear that you are still considering this from the point of view of whether or not online poker should be legal. Millions of people do not commit financial fraud and money laundering.
To me it's a question of resources in the investigation and prosecution of crimes. The executive branch has discretion in these matters. Going after things such as gambling, pornography, marijuana, and Barry Bonds (and the ancillary financial activities associated with these) is a complete waste and does nothing to improve our society as a whole, even if convictions and financial penalties are gained.

Last edited by Red Dog; 04-16-11 at 03:51 PM.
Old 04-16-11, 03:49 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

The irony is that the District of Columbia is considering setting up online poker parlors. The hypocrisy in this country is so fucking ridiculous.
Old 04-16-11, 03:59 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by red dog View Post
the executive branch has discretion in these matters. Going after things such as gambling, pornography, marijuana, and barry bonds (and the ancillary financial activities associated with these) is a complete waste and does nothing to improve our society as a whole, even if convictions and financial penalties are gained.
hope and change
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Old 04-16-11, 04:01 PM
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Re: Game Over (US Dept of Morality drops the hammer on online poker)

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
To me it's a question of resources in the investigation and prosecution of crimes. The executive branch has discretion in these matters. Going after things such as gambling, pornography, marijuana, and Barry Bonds (and the ancillary financial activities associated with these) is a complete waste and does nothing to improve our society as a whole, even if convictions and financial penalties are gained.
The case involves the flow of billions of dollars related to illegal activity. Investigative and prosecutorial discretion doesn't even enter into it, RD. Not even close.

This is not a case of the Feds going after the "little guy" who is just trying to make a buck offering a service that is against the law but otherwise tolerated by most.

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