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How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

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How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Old 12-08-09, 05:53 PM
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How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Just curious, how much have napster/torrenting etc hurt the music and or movie industry ?
Old 12-08-09, 05:57 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I hear they're both going out of business.
Old 12-08-09, 06:03 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

[X] Other
Old 12-08-09, 06:04 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

The music industry hurt themselves in their reaction and lack of action in response to digital media
Old 12-08-09, 06:15 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I think the lack of good music has hurt the music industry more than illegal downloading. The movie industry is doing just fine. Last year and this year have been very good years so I don't see it hurting them much at all.
Old 12-08-09, 06:16 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Somewhere between four and seven.
Old 12-08-09, 06:18 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

It's laughable to assume that every download has cost the industry a sale, but there are no doubt a significant number of downloaders who use downloading as an alternative to purchasing, as opposed to just "sampling" music.

I just want to why the music industry wasn't laughed out of court the first time the sued some kid for $20,000 per download. Downloading music is about a serious a crime as speeding.
Old 12-08-09, 06:30 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Aphex Twin View Post
The music industry hurt themselves in their reaction and lack of action in response to digital media
Yup.

I remember big news after a year or so of Napster's emergence that seemed to indicate that at music stores near college campuses, sales were way down, but at music stores farther away from college campuses, sales were up. Apparently, people were listening to a lot of music they hadn't been listening to before, and were buying lots of CDs they wouldn't have, otherwise. College students were just listening to the music they got from Napster, and were no longer buying CDs.

This matched my behavior at the time. I tried listening to a lot of new stuff that I didn't have easy access to before, and I probably bought more CDs during Napster's heyday than I have in all the time since then combined.

Of course, this was in the early days of MP3 players, and most people in the general public were still using dial-up. I imagine that behavior (some people buying more CDs) would not have continued in the age of the ability to download just about any song you want and sync it to your player, all in a matter of just a few seconds, for free.

New business models were needed. Instead, we got the DMCA.
Old 12-08-09, 06:39 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I also agree that the music industry has hurt themselves. I don't think the movie industry will ever hurt like music, because of the way they price dvds/blu-rays. Wal-Mart has bins of cheap DVDs, they sell them sometimes at $3.99 or lower... will CDs ever be that cheap? Never.
Old 12-08-09, 06:42 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Cheato View Post
New business models were needed.
I always hear this, but I never hear any suggestions on what that might be.
Old 12-08-09, 06:43 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I always hear this, but I never hear any suggestions on what that might be.
It's because those who own the rights to distribute the music refuse to agree on anything
Old 12-08-09, 06:44 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I totally amazes me that I can buy a DVD movie - when it's on sale - for less money than I can buy a music CD for.

It just irks the heck out of me that much TV on DVD has been delayed or put on hold or had original music replaced because the music industry is so greedy. Don't they understand that if I am able to listen to their music on a DVD that it might make me recall the beauty of that music and entice me to go out and buy it? Are they stupid or do they just act it?
Old 12-08-09, 06:59 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I just want to why the music industry wasn't laughed out of court the first time the sued some kid for $20,000 per download. Downloading music is about a serious a crime as speeding.
Because those are the specified damages the RIAA convinced Congress to spell out in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It's fucking ridiculous.
Old 12-08-09, 07:03 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

P2P is pretty much the way of the dodo except for torrents but I think piracy has gotten a lot worse since the 90s. There's many more ways to obtain things than there was back then. They apparently gave up lawsuits since it was so ridiculous but they'll still go after your ISP.

There will never be a way to stop it, but I think the initial reluctance to offer legal digital downloads did damper sales for awhile.
Old 12-08-09, 07:07 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
It's laughable to assume that every download has cost the industry a sale, but there are no doubt a significant number of downloaders who use downloading as an alternative to purchasing, as opposed to just "sampling" music.
Don't forget those that are just downloading music to say they have it. I'm talking about the guys with terabytes worth of music. No one is actually listening to that and no way would they be buying the thousands of discs.

To answer the original question, I don't think downloading has hurt either industry in any significant way. The movie business isn't doing that bad to begin with. The music industry hurt itself with the reaction to digital media and the pricing of discs more than downloading ever could.
Old 12-08-09, 07:11 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

The reason CDs are priced higher than DVDs is that there are way more CDs out there and the fanbase for individual artists and bands is much smaller. You have to extract a certain amount from your fanbase, unless you are someone who has a huge fanbase. You lower the price on DVDs enough and you'll have those who would buy who normally would not buy. Not the case with music.
Old 12-08-09, 07:15 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I always hear this, but I never hear any suggestions on what that might be.
For starters, get rid of release dates in their current form. As soon as an album is mastered, release it on the artist or label's site as a digital download, 320k+ for around $7. Have a release date down the road for a physical release, if necessary.

Too often, an artist completes an album, and the record label sets a release date a couple of months down the road. That album is going to be put on the net regardless, so they might as well put up a legal opportunity to obtain the album. I've seen countless people go to an artist's forum, eager for the newly announced album. After people start downloading the album illegally, there are still holdouts for the actual release date. Those holdouts start caving in as time goes on, when most likely those people would have bought the digital download for the aforementioned $7. Or, preorder the album, get the digital download immediately for free.
Old 12-08-09, 07:26 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Before downloading there was tapes... I still have a huge stack of tapes from when I was younger that I would record shit off the radio and play it over and over again and then record new shit on it. Seems like after all those years the music industry is still here and people are still making money some people just want more.
Old 12-08-09, 07:26 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Aphex Twin View Post
The reason CDs are priced higher than DVDs is that there are way more CDs out there and the fanbase for individual artists and bands is much smaller. You have to extract a certain amount from your fanbase, unless you are someone who has a huge fanbase. You lower the price on DVDs enough and you'll have those who would buy who normally would not buy. Not the case with music.
I don't agree with this... maybe in principle but retail stores stock more DVDs than CDs. And I totally disagree with the music assessment.... my CD collection would be 3x as many if they were lower prices. I think people are more inclined to seek out other artists that are similar to their tastes if they're cheap.
Old 12-08-09, 07:30 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Originally Posted by Aphex Twin View Post
The reason CDs are priced higher than DVDs is that there are way more CDs out there and the fanbase for individual artists and bands is much smaller. You have to extract a certain amount from your fanbase, unless you are someone who has a huge fanbase. You lower the price on DVDs enough and you'll have those who would buy who normally would not buy. Not the case with music.
I'm not sure about that.
1. I want to be able to sample music, to see what I want. I'm do not buy music for the artists, I buy based on the music.
2. Lower cost would make "should I buy this ?" decisions easier, same as with DVDs.
Old 12-08-09, 07:52 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Disagree all you want, but there is a reason budgets for marketing films is wayyyy higher than budgets for marketing records.
Old 12-08-09, 07:55 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I think Netflix has hurt the movie industry more than pirating. Getting easy to stream movies and just rent them through the mail.

The demise of the boy bands is what has truly killed the music industry.
Old 12-08-09, 07:58 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

Not too sure how much illegal downloads hurt as much as this would hurt...

from http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4596/135/

Canadian Recording Industry Faces $6 Billion Copyright Infringement Lawsuit
Monday December 07, 2009
Chet Baker was a leading jazz musician in the 1950s, playing trumpet and providing vocals. Baker died in 1988, yet he is about to add a new claim to fame as the lead plaintiff in possibly the largest copyright infringement case in Canadian history. His estate, which still owns the copyright in more than 50 of his works, is part of a massive class-action lawsuit that has been underway for the past year.

As my weekly technology law column (Toronto Star version, homepage version) notes, the infringer has effectively already admitted owing at least $50 million and the full claim could exceed $6 billion. If the dollars donít shock, the target of the lawsuit undoubtedly will: The defendants in the case are Warner Music Canada, Sony BMG Music Canada, EMI Music Canada, and Universal Music Canada, the four primary members of the Canadian Recording Industry Association.

The CRIA members were hit with the lawsuit [PDF] in October 2008, after artists decided to turn to the courts following decades of frustration with the rampant infringement (I am adviser to the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, which is co-counsel, but have had no involvement in the case). The claims arise from a longstanding practice of the recording industry in Canada, described in the lawsuit as "exploit now, pay later if at all." It involves the use of works that are often included in compilation CDs (ie. the top dance tracks of 2009) or live recordings. The record labels create, press, distribute, and sell the CDs, but do not obtain the necessary copyright licences.

Instead, the names of the songs on the CDs are placed on a "pending list", which signifies that approval and payment is pending. The pending list dates back to the late 1980s, when Canada changed its copyright law by replacing a compulsory licence with the need for specific authorization for each use. It is perhaps better characterized as a copyright infringement admission list, however, since for each use of the work, the record label openly admits that it has not obtained copyright permission and not paid any royalty or fee.


Over the years, the size of the pending list has grown dramatically, now containing over 300,000 songs. From Beyonce to Bruce Springsteen, the artists waiting for payment are far from obscure, as thousands of Canadian and foreign artists have seen their copyrights used without permission and payment.

It is difficult to understand why the industry has been so reluctant to pay its bills. Some works may be in the public domain or belong to a copyright owner difficult to ascertain or locate, yet the likes of Sarah McLachlan, Bruce Cockburn, Sloan, or the Watchmen are not hidden from view.

The more likely reason is that the record labels have had little motivation to pay up. As the balance has grown to over $50 million (Universal alone owes more than $30 million), David Basskin, the President and CEO of the Canadian Musical Reproduction Rights Agency Ltd., notes in his affidavit that "the record labels have devoted insufficient resources to identifying and paying the owners of musical works on the Pending Lists." Basskin adds that some labels believe addressing the issue would be "an unproductive use of their time."

Having engaged in widespread copyright infringement for over 20 years, the CRIA members now face the prospect of far greater liability. The class action seeks the option of statutory damages for each infringement. At $20,000 per infringement (the amount owed on some songs exceed this amount), potential liability exceeds $6 billion. These numbers may sound outrageous, yet they are based on the same rules that has led the recording industry to claim a single file sharer is liable for millions in damages.

After years of claiming Canadian consumers disrespect copyright, the irony of having the recording industry face a massive lawsuit will not be lost on anyone, least of all the artists still waiting to be paid. Indeed, they are also seeking punitive damages, arguing "the conduct of the defendant record companies is aggravated by their strict and unremitting approach to the enforcement of their copyright interests against consumers."

Update: An earlier version of this post noted that record label liability could exceed $60 billion in this case. A reader helpfully noted the math gremlin - the correct number is $6 billion ($20,000 per infringement X 300,000 songs).
Karma's a bitch!!

I have high hopes for this lawsuit but I don't expect too much
Old 12-08-09, 08:09 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

I agree with the sentiment that downloading gives people the opportunity to watch or listen to something they normally wouldn't have, which could lead to a legal purchase. It's a way to get your work out there for both industries. It's almost like free marketing. IE the movie "Ink", which has no distributor but through word of mouth and downloads is now selling countless more copies of its movie on dvd/blu ray then it did previous to it being available online. Fledgling bands that are looking for a breakthrough can now post their music online to create buzz and reach new fans.
Old 12-08-09, 08:12 PM
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Re: How much have illegal downloads hurt the music/movie industry ?

^^

I hope that happens.

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