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FatTalk: Fat People / Nutrition / Research

Old 03-25-08, 08:26 PM
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FatTalk: Fat People / Nutrition / Research

Here are two articles to get the discussion going.......

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....ten principles that underlie pretty much everything I write about fat and health.

1. Weight itself is not a health problem, except in the most extreme cases (i.e., being underweight or so fat you’re immobilized). In fact, fat people live longer than thin people and are more likely to survive cardiac events, and some studies have shown that fat can protect against “infections, cancer, lung disease, heart disease, osteoporosis, anemia, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and type 2 diabetes.” Yeah, you read that right: even the goddamned diabetes. Now, I’m not saying we should all go out and get fat for our health (which we wouldn’t be able to do anyway, because no one knows how to make a naturally thin person fat any more than they know how to make a naturally fat person thin; see point 4), but I’m definitely saying obesity research is turning up surprising information all the time — much of which goes ignored by the media — and people who give a damn about critical thinking would be foolish to accept the party line on fat. Just because you’ve heard over and over and over that fat! kills! doesn’t mean it’s true. It just means that people in this culture really love saying it.

2. Poor nutrition and a sedentary lifestyle do cause health problems, in people of all sizes. This is why it’s so fucking crucial to separate the concept of “obesity” from “eating crap and not exercising.” The two are simply not synonymous — not even close — and it’s not only incredibly offensive but dangerous for thin people to keep pretending that they are. There are thin people who eat crap and don’t exercise — and are thus putting their health at risk — and there are fat people who treat their bodies very well but remain fat. Really truly.

3. What’s more, those groups do not represent anomalies; no one has proven that fat people generally eat more or exercise less than thin people. Period. And believe me, they’ve tried. (Gina Kolata’s new book, Rethinking Thin, is an outstanding source for more on that point.)

4. Diets don’t work. No, really, not even if you don’t call them diets. If you want to tell me about how YOUR diet totally worked, do me a favor and wait until you’ve kept all the weight off for five years. Not one year, not four years, five years. And if you’ve kept it off for that long, congratulations. You’re literally a freak of nature.

5. Given that diets don’t work in the long-term for the vast, vast majority of people, even if obesity in and of itself were a health crisis, how the fuck would you propose we solve it?

6. Most fat people have already dieted repeatedly. And sadly, it’s likely that the dieting will cause them more health problems than the fat.

7. Human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Fat people are human beings.

8. Even fat people who are unhealthy still deserve dignity and respect. Still human beings. See how that works?

9. In any case, shaming teh fatties for being “unhealthy” doesn’t fucking help. If shame made people thin, there wouldn’t be a fat person in this country, trust me. I wish I could remember who said this, ’cause it’s one of my favorite quotes of all time: “You cannot hate people for their own good.”

10. If you scratch an article on the obesity! crisis! you will almost always find a press release from a company that’s developing a weight loss drug — or from a “research group” that’s funded by such companies.

SOURCE: http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-...-is-unhealthy/

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The nutritional research is definitely not what people think....particularly in regard to food intake, though there is still a gap (possibly genetic and/or medical) that effects many more people. Thyroid problems are ~10% (generally accepted %), so that leaves 90% of weight gain for other reasons. I recently read a great article in Psychology Today about the role of appetite in weight gain/control.

Consuming Passions: Appetite may be the ultimate mind-body problem. Understanding the true nature of appetite is the only way to successfully obstruct it. By: Karen Wright

The rats in Bart Hoebel's laboratory at Princeton University are sugar junkies. They binge on sugar syrup every day, pressing a feeding bar frantically for hours at a time. Deprived of sugar for just 24 hours, they show signs of withdrawal any human addict would recognize: chattering teeth, trembling paws, wobbly heads.

Hoebel's sugar addicts aren't the only rodents jonesing for junk food. Rats at Pennsylvania State University in State College are fat fiends; they gorge themselves on Crisco. At the National Center for Scientific Research in Bordeaux, France, rats overindulge in a cocoa-flavored breakfast cereal called Choc and Crisp. At the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB), the rat junkies binge on Double Stuf Oreo cookies, consuming twice as many calories per day as normal rats when they're stressed out, a mood state induced by mild electrical shocks delivered through the metal floor grid.

All the animals are unwilling recruits in the scientific quest to understand appetite, a fundamental human drive whose complexities have long frustrated researchers and dieters alike. Craving and bingeing are anomalies in rodents, but they're common in people. Studies of eating behavior show that most men and women go on occasional eating binges and experience food cravings that feel overwhelming.

Such findings should come as no surprise; eating is more important to an individual's survival than even sex, and it's in everybody's interest to make sure the urge to consume stays strong. If you're one of the millions trying to lose weight or lower your cholesterol, you know firsthand just how powerful a force appetite can be. In this land of plenty, where there's little chance of starving, our appetites have become downright dangerous.

"We're overeating, eating way beyond our caloric need," says Mary Boggiano, a psychologist at UAB. "Sixty-four percent of the population is overweight." Half that number—fully one-third of the U.S. population—is not just overweight but obese, facing increased risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, and arthritis. The steep rise in obesity over the past two decades has been called an epidemic and deemed a factor in hundreds of thousands of deaths a year. Despite policies aimed at reversing the trend, "current data indicate that the situation is worsening," warns the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Like what you see? Subscribe to Psychology Today to read more! (Doh!)

Psychology Today Magazine, Mar/Apr 2008
Last Reviewed 29 Feb 2008
Article ID: 4541

SOURCE: http://psychologytoday.com/articles/...225-000004.xml
If people care, I have some other good articles on nutritional stuff, though you'd have to look up the citations, as most are copyrighted through various jounrnals.
Old 03-25-08, 08:34 PM
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It's not even about eating crap, it's about how much crap you eat. (At least for me) I eat crap all the time. Probably eat out 80% of my meals thanks to the deli at work but I'm not even classified as overweight by BMI. I rarely exercise too

When I order a regular size combo meal from a fast food restaurant, I'm lucky if I can finish half. If I can get away with it, I often order/eat kids meals.

Now, when I was with my ex who constantly criticized my weight (saying I was too skinny) I ate every bit of my meals even after I was full. If I didn't, he would insist that I couldn't possibly be full. THAT'S when I was the highest I've ever weighed - and I was overweight by the BMI scale. I lost 10lbs shortly after the divorce and have never gained it back... well except for I'm getting close now - but that doesn't count!
Old 03-25-08, 08:38 PM
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It is interesting though because food intake is just one of the contributing factors (obviously binge eaters and many morbidly obese eat much more than average), but also things like genetics, lifestyle, etc.

Guitar Hero or riding a bike.....hmmm.......GH!!!!!! Welcome to America.
Old 03-25-08, 08:41 PM
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A lot of these articles I feel are feel-good articles for the too lazy or uncommited to actually be healthy. If you do real, regular exercise (not this "20 minutes 3 times a week" tripe) and watch what you eat (mostly fresh, non-processed stuff) you'll be fine.

The problem is that doing the above, for one reason or another, is pretty difficult.
Old 03-25-08, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
A lot of these articles I feel are feel-good articles for the too lazy or uncommited to actually be healthy. If you do real, regular exercise (not this "20 minutes 3 times a week" tripe) and watch what you eat (mostly fresh, non-processed stuff) you'll be fine.

The problem is that doing the above, for one reason or another, is pretty difficult.
exactly... Now Ill be the first to say that nutritional science in this country is woefully inadequate and really has no basis in proven facts, but these type article are just more of the "we have to make everyone feel good about themselves", PC nature of health and diet.
Old 03-25-08, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
A lot of these articles I feel are feel-good articles for the too lazy or uncommited to actually be healthy. If you do real, regular exercise (not this "20 minutes 3 times a week" tripe) and watch what you eat (mostly fresh, non-processed stuff) you'll be fine.

The problem is that doing the above, for one reason or another, is pretty difficult.
People like to be sedentary, and people like to eat junk. Not much mystery to it, really.
Old 03-25-08, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
4. Diets don’t work. No, really, not even if you don’t call them diets. If you want to tell me about how YOUR diet totally worked, do me a favor and wait until you’ve kept all the weight off for five years. Not one year, not four years, five years. And if you’ve kept it off for that long, congratulations. You’re literally a freak of nature.
Hi, freak of nature here, I guess I won't bore you with details that you won't beleive anyway
Old 03-25-08, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
A lot of these articles I feel are feel-good articles for the too lazy or uncommited to actually be healthy.
These self-involved rants are awful. Just because people of all shapes and sizes deserve to be treated with respect and just because there is a small percentage of Americans with legitimate medical conditions doesn't excuse the fact that we've become an incredibly sedentary, lazy, and uneducated culture when it comes to nutrition and health. No amount of feel-good "I'm beautiful!" denial will make skipping breakfast, sitting on your ass all day, and gorging on huge meals of processed food a healthy lifestyle. And while I'm the first to point out that worrying about things like BMI is useless, since it doesn't account for whether you're healthy or not, and being skinny is not necessarily a good thing, it's complete bullshit to suggest that a majority of obese people are not at a greater risk of health problems and that in most cases their obesity is not the result of personal choices.

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Old 03-25-08, 11:32 PM
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2. Poor nutrition and a sedentary lifestyle do cause health problems, in people of all sizes. This is why it’s so fucking crucial to separate the concept of “obesity” from “eating crap and not exercising.” The two are simply not synonymous — not even close — and it’s not only incredibly offensive but dangerous for thin people to keep pretending that they are. There are thin people who eat crap and don’t exercise — and are thus putting their health at risk — and there are fat people who treat their bodies very well but remain fat. Really truly.

I agree with this.

But I still have to ask, why are we, as a society, fatter as time goes on? It's the food which is being produced by manufacturers, and even the "organic" and direct-from-farm-to-mouth foods which are questionable. I'm also very anti-HFCS and think this single ingredient is causing mass obesity. Someday, it will be revealed as addictive as nicotine, but until then, you only have my rants on the stuff.
Old 03-25-08, 11:52 PM
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I don't understand why anyone is overweight. Liposene has been clinically proven to remove excess body fat. In fact, it is so powerful, that they warn you not to use it unless you are serious about losing lots of weight.*

And there's a doctor that recommends it**.


* These statements not evaluated by the FDA
** Doctor is a Doctor of Homeopathic Medicine licensed in Tailand
Old 03-26-08, 12:05 AM
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genetics shmetics. that's for a very, very, very small number of people.
Old 03-26-08, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
4. Diets don’t work. No, really, not even if you don’t call them diets. If you want to tell me about how YOUR diet totally worked, do me a favor and wait until you’ve kept all the weight off for five years. Not one year, not four years, five years. And if you’ve kept it off for that long, congratulations. You’re literally a freak of nature.
Bullshit. Diets "don't work" because at some point you'll go off the diet and start eating crap again. If you actually stayed on the diet for five years, it would work just fine. I should know. I'm one of the world's greatest yo-yo dieters.
Old 03-26-08, 01:15 AM
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it's because when people think of "diet," they think of it as a "fix." Only eat A & B and you're okay. the problem is that so many people aren't being educated about nutrition properly. Real food is so much more appealing once you've actually had it. But then people have this stupid notion that healthy food is "too expensive." I'm sure these are the same people who have to have their cable/satellite/fly outfit, etc. If you don't care about your health, I don't care. But it's not about discriminating just because you're obese. it's the rising health care costs that concern me.

okay, that rant was everywhere, but I don't care, I'm tired and going to bed...
Old 03-26-08, 01:16 AM
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What the hell, ill throw my 2 cents in here and comment on the ten point list at the top. I dont know who wrote it, but they are sadly misinformed. I realize the OP isnt writing the top ten list - but its garbage like this that sets people back and confuses people even worse than they allready are.

1. This is entire statement is misguided and false from the beginning to the end of the paragraph. Obesity is the #1 cause of preventable health problems in the country. It actually overtook smoking to be the #1 cause of preventable health problems (sleep apnea, hypertension, diabetes, cardiac problems, etc.) . Fat people, by no standard or means of comparison, outlive non-fat people.

2. You dont need a scientific study to "show" that obesity are synonymous, or to put it more conservatively, linked, with eating poor quality food, having a sedentary lifestyle, and whats exponentially worse - the two combined at same time. Does that mean that because i occasionally eat a burger that I should be a fat person, or that i ocasionally down a beer or two, that i should be an alcolholic ? You cant label a few things here and there as good, bad, good, bad and form your conclusion from that - its the THOUSANDS of little choices that we all make each day, day after day, year after year, that makes our body look like what it does.

3. This, again, is ridiculous and desperate. We dont need a study or a scientist to show the correlations between eating excessive calories and putting on weight, or creating a caloric deficit and then losing weight. Its pretty simple.

4. WTF? If you want, ill be happy to point out any one of thousands of success stories of people that put themself on a diet and lost weight, and kept it off. Im not sure i understand this point - its probably the most pathetic and desperate of all.

5. Whos responsibility is it to solve a national or global health crisis / obesity crisis??? Whos responsible here ? Think real hard -

6. ??????? I dont even know what to say to that


7. No one deserves respect. The people who have it fucking earned it. Go earn your own.

8. See point 7.

9. A little shame does good for the soul. If your "ashamed" of yourself , then doesnt that mean that you realize deep down something is wrong? That you feel bad for a reason?

10. Your an ignorant retard. Go do your research before you open your mouth.
Old 03-26-08, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Numanoid
Bullshit. Diets "don't work" because at some point you'll go off the diet and start eating crap again. If you actually stayed on the diet for five years, it would work just fine. I should know. I'm one of the world's greatest yo-yo dieters.
It all depends on the 'diet'. The vast majority are unhealthy, and they will eventually catch up to the person. At worst there can be organ damage/death, and at best the body may have nutritional deficiencies. If there are lifestyle changes that is one thing, but diets typically focus on cutting out certain types of food, and or having very rigid views about food......and that can be problematic.

As an aside, I this HFCS is the devil.
Old 03-26-08, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
It all depends on the 'diet'. The vast majority are unhealthy, and they will eventually catch up to the person. At worst there can be organ damage/death, and at best the body may have nutritional deficiencies. If there are lifestyle changes that is one thing, but diets typically focus on cutting out certain types of food, and or having very rigid views about food......and that can be problematic.

As an aside, I this HFCS is the devil.
like I said before, if people actually understood their bodies, understand how food works, when they should eat it, etc., a lot of the problems would be solved. Eating a healthy diet doesn't have to be restrictive in the least. I eat pretty much what I want, and what I want to eat are healthy things, but maybe once a day I'll have something "bad," like ice cream. Sure, some days I don't care and eat whatever. I don't feel guilty about it because I know I like the healthy foods I eat, and not because they're healthy, but because they actually taste good.
Old 03-26-08, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by skiblet
I dont know who wrote it, but they are sadly misinformed. I realize the OP isnt writing the top ten list - but its garbage like this that sets people back and confuses people even worse than they allready are.
I linked to the source, so you can check on whether or not you trust the author. I posted it because I knew it would get the discussion going, though I didn't take a stand on whether or not I agreed with it. I don't think it is confusing per se, just looking at things a bit differently.

Originally Posted by skiblet
3. This, again, is ridiculous and desperate. We dont need a study or a scientist to show the correlations between eating excessive calories and putting on weight, or creating a caloric deficit and then losing weight. Its pretty simple.
It's not that simple, as there are great ranges in metabolic response (activation, up/down regulation, efficiency, etc), short and long term exercise programs for various body types, etc. Overly simplified it is Caloric Intake - Burned Calories = Weight gain/loss.....but there are so many other things that influence that.
Old 03-26-08, 01:34 AM
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Crash "diets" do suck. The delusional author of that blog is probably the textbook candidate for those terrible "diets", looking for a 2 month solution to a lifetime of abuse. You'll only make yourself worse doing that crap. However, a "diet" of balanced nutrition, moderate portions, and moderate exercise will work for just about everyone. But waaaaa! That's hard! *pouts*

Bitching about crash diets not working is like complaining the watch you bought from a guy outside a gas station doesn't keep good time. A little more common sense and a little less Oprah would help.

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Old 03-26-08, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
A lot of these articles I feel are feel-good articles for the too lazy or uncommited to actually be healthy. If you do real, regular exercise (not this "20 minutes 3 times a week" tripe) and watch what you eat (mostly fresh, non-processed stuff) you'll be fine.

The problem is that doing the above, for one reason or another, is pretty difficult.
but, but, watching what you eat is considered a diet. That conflicts with #4
i agree with everything you said.

everyone is on a diet. A diet is what you eat. Some people structure their diet, others don't.

Fad diets (what #4 refers to) don't work.
Old 03-26-08, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
It's not that simple, as there are great ranges in metabolic response (activation, up/down regulation, efficiency, etc), short and long term exercise programs for various body types, etc. Overly simplified it is Caloric Intake - Burned Calories = Weight gain/loss.....but there are so many other things that influence that.

Well, its as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. Is nutrition, and biology and anatomy complicated, your f-ing a right it is.... if your trying to get into 7 % bodyfat or run a marathon or something

If your the typical 50 lb overweight american, its PRETTY SIMPLE: Eat smaller, healthier, balanced portions. Exercise. Repeat. Every day.

For the general population, and for our purposes of discussion, everyones body/anatomy/genetics works more or less the same, and if everyone applied similar principles (which is impossible), then everyone would have similar responses.

Wouldnt that be great ?
Old 03-26-08, 08:16 AM
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Let me guess.....you are the guy who motivates by screaming at someone, "just keep going!" Sometimes you need more than that for compliance.

Education about nutrition would definitely take them down that road, but I still think there is work to be done.....how about researching effective ways to KEEP people in a healthy lifestyle? Unfortunately I don't have much faith in the average american to stay on a regime.....compliance rates for overweight individuals, let alone morbidly obese, isn't very good.
Old 03-26-08, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by skiblet
10. Your an ignorant retard....
Sigh.
Old 03-26-08, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by grrrah

everyone is on a diet. A diet is what you eat. Some people structure their diet, others don't.

Fad diets (what #4 refers to) don't work.
And this is exaclty it... And you either want to stay on a healthy regime or not. It really isnt hard to understand. The fact is you know whats good and what isnt. And let say for arguments sake, you dont always know. You at least know that, whether something is good or not, eating a shit load of it is probably not a good idea.

Also, as a society, we look at one thing, demonize it, and then think since we are giving that up we are doing ok. For example Trans fats and HFCS. Yes those things suck and should be outlawed. However, we think just because we cut out one thing, it allows us to ramp up on other stuff. Fact is as a nation, we have such easy access to food now a days that we just consume way too many calories.
Old 03-26-08, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike
Sigh.
I almost did the same thing.
Old 03-26-08, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by skiblet


7. No one deserves respect. The people who have it fucking earned it. Go earn your own.

8. See point 7.

9. A little shame does good for the soul. If your "ashamed" of yourself , then doesnt that mean that you realize deep down something is wrong? That you feel bad for a reason?

10. Your an ignorant retard. Go do your research before you open your mouth.
Wow. you are sad. I guess I can agree with your #7 since you proved it so well.

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