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YA"IHP"T (or, yet another "I hate Paypal" thread...

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YA"IHP"T (or, yet another "I hate Paypal" thread...

Old 03-13-08, 04:03 AM
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YA"IHP"T (or, yet another "I hate Paypal" thread...

Back on January 11th, I paid a guy for a phone that he was advertising on Craigslist. Waited nearly a month, never got the phone (during which I was in contact with him...the day after I paid, he said it was shipped, then two weeks later inquired to see if it'd been received. Two weeks later, he said it came back to him, and that he'd reship it. That was the last I heard from him).

So a month ago, I went ahead and filed a Paypal dispute, considering now, he wouldn't return my emails. I've never had to file a dispute before, and wasn't sure how it worked. It came time to file a claim, and I did that as well.

Today, I got an email, saying that they have found in my favor. However, they won't give me my money back. Here's the email:

Dear Jason,

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in
question if they become available in the seller's account in the future and
will take appropriate action against the seller. Such action may include
issuing a warning, a temporary restriction, or terminating the account.
Keep in mind that PayPal uses a number of factors to determine when to take
action, including member complaints. Due to privacy laws, we cannot discuss
the details of any action taken. We hope you understand our policy and that
it assures you that you are safe using PayPal.


-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------


Seller's Name: Miguel Casiano
Seller's Email: [email protected]
Seller's Transaction ID: (removed)

Transaction Date: Jan 11, 2008
Transaction Amount: -$55.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: (removed)
Case Number: (removed)

Buyer's Transaction ID: (removed)


-----------------------------------
What to Do Next
-----------------------------------

This case is now closed. No further action is required by you at this time.


-----------------------------------
Other Details
-----------------------------------

To make sure future transactions proceed smoothly, we suggest you visit the
PayPal site and click the Security Center link located at the bottom of any
page. There you will find tips on how to avoid fraudulent sellers in the
"Fraud Prevention Tips for Buyers" section.

Sincerely,
PayPal
Protection Services Department


What a bunch of bullshit. I've been using Paypal since 2003, but I don't think I'll use them anymore. To me, this is ridiculous.

= J

Last edited by Tarantino; 04-14-08 at 03:42 AM.
Old 03-13-08, 04:23 AM
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He probably cashed out the funds that were in the paypal account you sent to, and has moved on to another one. You probably won't get your money back.
Old 03-13-08, 08:08 AM
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That happened to me last year. I'd purchased 2 lots of Ring of Honor dvds from the same seller. I paid for one with my Paypal Buyer Credit account and used my debit card through Paypal for the other one. The dvds never arrived so I filed claims against the seller. The purchase paid for with Buyer Credit was refunded to me quickly. The one that I paid for with my debit card got me a message like yours. I think they were able to recover $3 out of the $110. Luckily, I went through my bank and was able to file a fraud claim to recover the money.
Old 03-13-08, 09:40 AM
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Paypal's Buyer Protection is for shit. I've been trying to develop a way around the Forum Selection Clause so I can sue them outside CA and the precedent is killing me. For any curious lawyers, the strategy would involve fraud (i.e., Paypal induces you to agree to the UA by promising full buyer protection knowing that it cannot guarantee full recovery).
Old 03-13-08, 09:54 AM
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Did you pay with a credit card linked to your Paypal account? If so file a claim with your CC company. If you paid with a bank debit card that will be tougher to file a claim with. But Paypal absolutely hates when you file a claim with your cc company, they will tell you that is against the TOS rules they have, they might even threaten to suspend your Paypal account. But file a claim if you used a credit card. Paypal really sucks sometimes.
Old 03-13-08, 10:18 AM
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i just got 3 fraudulent purchases on my account. i havent used my account in about 8 months. yeah, emailing the people in charge is absolutely ridiculous. they barely speak english and keep thanking me for the purchase. sigh. wonder if paypal was jacked into?
Old 03-13-08, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MrNicolas
Did you pay with a credit card linked to your Paypal account? If so file a claim with your CC company. If you paid with a bank debit card that will be tougher to file a claim with. But Paypal absolutely hates when you file a claim with your cc company, they will tell you that is against the TOS rules they have, they might even threaten to suspend your Paypal account. But file a claim if you used a credit card. Paypal really sucks sometimes.
Actually, it isn't. As part of my research, I read that portion of the of UA. It simply says that you can utilize either PP's protection OR your credit cards.

The issue is with people who LOSE a PP challenge and THEN use their CC protection. That is what is against the UA.
Old 03-13-08, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Josh
Actually, it isn't. As part of my research, I read that portion of the of UA. It simply says that you can utilize either PP's protection OR your credit cards.

The issue is with people who LOSE a PP challenge and THEN use their CC protection. That is what is against the UA.
must have changed

last i heard they wanted you to use their dispute resolution first and if it failed then you can file a cc dispute. if you filed a cc dispute first they would close your account
Old 03-13-08, 12:14 PM
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The thing is, I used my Paypal funds for it. Although my account is linked to my bank account. I'm guessing this wouldn't matter?

= J
Old 03-13-08, 01:10 PM
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I recommend changing the thread title.... everyone knows that IH8 is the appropriate abbreviation for "I Hate"
Old 03-13-08, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarantino
The thing is, I used my Paypal funds for it. Although my account is linked to my bank account. I'm guessing this wouldn't matter?

= J
It was PayPal funds via an Instant Transfer? Or just a regular positive balance? If it was via a bank transfer, that's a tough one. I'd say "no". But you might be able to call your bank, lie, and tell them that you never did the transaction to begin with - and someone stole your account information. I had someone reverse an eCheck once (not cancelled - but actually reversed it a month later). If you do this, expect your PayPal account to be suspended.

I once bought two phones for $230. The guy ripped off me and five-or-so other people. Unfortunately, I guess I was the last one to do a claim. I only got $2.xx out of my $230 back. I also sent $1200 to someone one time, via PayPal funds. The guy never delivered and I never got my order. Same deal - only his account was empty.

PayPal does NOT personally backup transactions to the buyer, in any way shape or form. NEVER EVER. For buyers, they will only reverse the funds if there is a positive account balance in the sellers account.

PayPal DOES backup transctions for sellers, in very, very rare cases. I sold something for $230 a year or two ago. It went to a confirmed address. I got a "credit card chargeback" almost immediately - like two days after I shipped it - within a week or so of the transaction. After a month or two, PayPal said "sorry, we're unable to get your money back". SIX MONTHS LATER, I saw the money come back! I have no idea how their system works in these situations. And I had all-but-forgotten about the transaction. And then it just showed up - exactly six months later.

Blah blah blah. This is probably the tenth time I've posted these stories. Nobody pays attention anyways. They just wait till they get ripped off once and then look into how PayPal Protection actually works.
Old 03-13-08, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Josh
The issue is with people who LOSE a PP challenge and THEN use their CC protection. That is what is against the UA.
Really? That's against their policy? That is interesting to hear.

Makes sense though. Plain and simple... If PayPal denies a challenge, it's because the seller-user didn't have funds in his account. If you do a credit card chargeback, all PayPal can do is put the seller-account into a negative balance - from which they'd probably never get the money from - and carry that debt forever. And it is ONLY at that point that PayPal acctually loses a dollar. It's like the ONE AND ONLY situation that PayPal can actually lose money on.
Old 03-13-08, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
must have changed
It did. I think they got sued for denying people their federal rights for chargebacks due to fraud and had to amend the UA. But it's in there, if you want read for yourself.

Originally Posted by troystiffler
It's like the ONE AND ONLY situation that PayPal can actually lose money on.
I think you are exactly right.
Old 03-13-08, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by troystiffler
It was PayPal funds via an Instant Transfer? Or just a regular positive balance? If it was via a bank transfer, that's a tough one. I'd say "no". But you might be able to call your bank, lie, and tell them that you never did the transaction to begin with - and someone stole your account information. I had someone reverse an eCheck once (not cancelled - but actually reversed it a month later). If you do this, expect your PayPal account to be suspended.
It was my regular Paypal balance, as I'd sold some stuff on eBay.

= J
Old 03-13-08, 10:50 PM
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I am having a similar issue. I have been with Paypal for 5 years, no issues, now all of a sudden....

Long story short, I had $300 in my Paypal balance from selling some stuff on Ebay. I made an order through a legit place on the internet that accepted Paypal as a payment. Made my payment, never got my stuff. Called the vendor asking about my stuff, gave me the run around. I filed a claim with Paypal. Paypal gives 10 days for the vendor to respond to the claim, otherwise the claim automatically goes into my favor. Vendor never responded to the claim, that should make me the automatic victor, right. Well that was 2 days ago.

WTF????


Resolution Center - Claim Details
A claim has been filed against this transaction. The seller's deadline for responding to this claim is Mar. 12, 2008. If the seller does not respond by the deadline, the claim will be decided in your favor. You may cancel this case at any time by clicking "Cancel" below.
Anybody else have this issue before? I emailed them about it, what a pain in the ass!! I WANT MY MONEY!!!! GRRRRRRRRRR.

Never again using Paypal to pay for anything besides Ebay.
Old 03-13-08, 11:18 PM
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I got pretty much the same email from Paypal regarding a dispute I had. Mine was only for something like $5 so it wasn't the end of the world.

I honestly thing the ebay seller died - he had been a member for six or so years, some feedback mentioned his claim of health problems for slow shipping, and right after this purchase his account was closed.
Old 03-14-08, 02:33 AM
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I have one of these from three years ago on my PP account, from a DVD set I'd bought around Christmas time. Still haven't gotten the money...still says I have an unresolved issue when I log into PP.
Old 04-13-08, 10:02 PM
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I am remembering why I had Paypal.

I had an account some time ago, but hated jumping through the hoops they wanted.

Recently in a mad cleaning of the basement, i put some items on eBay (3 to be exact) requesting money order payment. Of those 3, two winners emails me and asked if I took paypal, and the third was a no pay.

So when I tried to list more items, ebay said i need to accept paypal in order to list!! So I find my old account and update it. So I get payment for one of my earlier auctions. So now it cost me ~$7.00 to receive payment, above eBay fees!

Paypal keeps telling me i need to add a bank account to verify myself, but when I try, the fucking thing won't let me, due to "You are currently not allowed to add a bank account because your account access has been limited." I emailed them about it twice, to no response.

WTF!!

So now to get my money, the are going to charge me $1.50 for a check!

I so remember why I hated Paypal, and why I didn't want to use them, but I am forced by eBay to do so (or should it be extorted?)!
Old 04-14-08, 12:36 AM
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if your account access has been limited, then sometimes, there are certain things you can do to clear the account. they should tell you on paypal
Old 04-14-08, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
must have changed

last i heard they wanted you to use their dispute resolution first and if it failed then you can file a cc dispute. if you filed a cc dispute first they would close your account
the rules have changed.

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...a/USUA-outside

13.15 Relationship between PayPal Protection Programs and Chargeback Rights. The following information relates to reimbursement for losses from purchases where you used a credit card to fund a PayPal purchase:

1. Credit card chargeback rights, if they apply, are broader than PayPal Buyer Protection: among other things chargeback rights are not limited to $2,000.00 USD per transaction, can be filed more than 45 days after the transaction, and may cover unsatisfactory items even if they are not Significantly Not as Described.
2. You can choose to file a Dispute through our Online Dispute Resolution process and escalate the Dispute into a Claim or to exercise your Chargeback rights. However, you cannot pursue both at the same time or seek a double recovery. If you initiate a Dispute through the Online Dispute Resolution process and you then, while the Dispute or Claim is pending, file a Chargeback, PayPal will cancel your Dispute or Claim, and you will have to rely solely on your Chargeback rights.
3. If you close your Dispute or it is otherwise closed, or if you cancel a Claim or it is denied or results in no refund, you may still be able to pursue Chargeback rights.
4. If you timely file a Dispute and then escalate it to a Claim, and we do not complete processing of that Claim until after your credit card issuers imposed deadline for filing a Chargeback or after your banks deadline for filing an Electronic Fund Transfer Act dispute, and you recover less than the full amount you would have been entitled to recover from the credit card issuer or the bank, we will reimburse you for the remainder of your loss (minus any amount you have already recovered from the seller or any other Buyer Protection Program). PayPal reserves the right to contest Chargebacks, in accordance with the rules of the applicable card issuer or card association.
5. Buyers should follow the sellers return policy as stated on their auction or website. If a return policy is not available, the buyer should work directly with the seller to return the item. Buyers may be required to prove that the seller received the returned item and should obtain Viewable Online Proof of Delivery from an approved shipper. Return shipping is at the buyer’s expense unless otherwise agreed to by the seller.
Old 04-14-08, 01:07 AM
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Yeah, my PayPal account was "limited" for no reason a while back. I tried to go through the process to get it reinstated, but it would give me nonsensical instructions like "Please verify the items in this list." There were no items in the list. So I called them, and they told me they could not fix it over the phone and to email a specific address. I emailed them and after a few weeks went by, I got a response: "In order to solve your problem, please call this number" ... the number I had already called. I don't really need a PayPal account, so they can go fuck themselves for all I care.

das
Old 04-14-08, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by D.Pham00
must have been a scammer's paradise

dispute a CC and paypal and get double the money back

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