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Bad play your thoughts?

Old 08-27-06, 10:24 PM
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Bad play your thoughts?

So in the BB in a pretty wild NL game we play, have 3, 9 offsuit. Flop comes 3, 3, 8, rainbow.first bets $12(fish) I go over the top all in($130.00) my buddy calls, he has A3 no luck on turn or river, no idea someone else had the other 3, bad play?

Last edited by Kman1011; 08-27-06 at 10:27 PM.
Old 08-27-06, 11:00 PM
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Impossible to say without knowing the competition. You say he's a fish, but that doesn't tell us much. Is he a fish because he's a maniac? Or because his shorts are too tight? Or because he's just a little clueless in general?
Old 08-28-06, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Kman1011
So in the BB in a pretty wild NL game we play, have 3, 9 offsuit. Flop comes 3, 3, 8, rainbow.first bets $12(fish) I go over the top all in($130.00) my buddy calls, he has A3 no luck on turn or river, no idea someone else had the other 3, bad play?
the other 3? am i counting wrong or are all 3s in play already?

you have: 3 9
he has: A 3
board is: 3 3 8

thats all 4 treys.

what kind of deck do you use?
Old 08-28-06, 12:15 AM
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I think he meant he didn't think someone else could have the 4th 3 in the deck.
Old 08-28-06, 12:17 AM
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I know I'm not playing cards with him!

I probably would have made a prohibitively large bet but well short of all in. Esp. since the odds of getting outdrawn don't seem extremely high. As you know in retrospect 39 can be beaten by...

3 10
3 J
3 Q
3 K
3 A
3 8
8 8
Old 08-28-06, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Kousoulas
I think he meant he didn't think someone else could have the 4th 3 in the deck.
Well, that was mistake #1.
Old 08-28-06, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kman1011
So in the BB in a pretty wild NL game we play, have 3, 9 offsuit. Flop comes 3, 3, 8, rainbow.first bets $12(fish) I go over the top all in($130.00) my buddy calls, he has A3 no luck on turn or river, no idea someone else had the other 3, bad play?

So let me get this straight.

I'm guessing you were playing in a low limit NL game where blinds were maybe 1/2, right?

Let's assume nobody raised preflop. If someone raised preflop and you called with 93, then yeah, horrible horrible play. But I'm guessing that it was a free check to you in the BB.

Thus, let's just guess that there's 3-6 people seeing the flop. That's $12. So the fish bets roughly the size of the pot after the 833 flop and you go all in for $130?

Such a huuuuuge bet means you're typically only getting called by hands that beat you. So yah, horrible play. I would have repopped it to $40 or so to see where this guy was at. If he pushes over the top on you, you can usually assume you're beat.
Old 08-28-06, 12:40 AM
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el scorcho: agreed cept what if, after you push to $40, the guy reraises you to say $100 holding A8 or KK? how can you tell if you are ahead or not?
Old 08-28-06, 12:48 AM
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Well you can rule out KK, any moron raises with that hand.

But something like A8 isn't out of the question -- you just have to go with your reads on the guy.

It's a tough fold to find and I can't guarantee that I'd be able to fold it. Chalk it up to the hand being a cooler and move on, I guess.
Old 08-28-06, 05:41 AM
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If you didn't lose all your money on the flop you would have on the turn or river. I don't think it was a good play to push all in as most of the time you're winning $12 and the blinds or losing it all but on this hand it didn't really matter as you were losing it all anyways.
Old 08-28-06, 11:54 AM
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No when i say fish about the guy in front of me makes large bets on nothing, easily loses $500 game, and out draws everyone with nothing, so the bet was indeed to either to get him to call (I knew he had no 3) or to get him out and take the $40 in the pot. Because the way he plays if I had not pushed him all in and just called the guy after(the other 3) would have just called and guarantee the fish would make a large all in bet on the turn and probably caught something as always, but hey thats life and it wasn't that much since it was early in the night
Old 08-28-06, 12:38 PM
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In that case, definitely bad play. You were out of position to make a move like that. And it was a fantastic illustration of the risks in playing out of position. Next time sit directly to his right.
Old 08-28-06, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kman1011
No when i say fish about the guy in front of me makes large bets on nothing, easily loses $500 game, and out draws everyone with nothing, so the bet was indeed to either to get him to call (I knew he had no 3) or to get him out and take the $40 in the pot. Because the way he plays if I had not pushed him all in and just called the guy after(the other 3) would have just called and guarantee the fish would make a large all in bet on the turn and probably caught something as always, but hey thats life and it wasn't that much since it was early in the night


Anyone else hear this voice when they read this?
Old 08-28-06, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kman1011
No when i say fish about the guy in front of me makes large bets on nothing, easily loses $500 game, and out draws everyone with nothing, so the bet was indeed to either to get him to call (I knew he had no 3) or to get him out and take the $40 in the pot. Because the way he plays if I had not pushed him all in and just called the guy after(the other 3) would have just called and guarantee the fish would make a large all in bet on the turn and probably caught something as always, but hey thats life and it wasn't that much since it was early in the night
You knew he had no 3?

Old 08-28-06, 01:18 PM
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On a more serious note, it's hard to lay down a hand like this. The bad play occurring isn't because you couldn't sniff out the other A3. Afterall, he could have 38, 37, etc. The only way you could have known is if he you can read minds. Your 9 is a very decent kicker in this situation. You could have probably extracted more money if the guy had a lesser hand instead of just blowing your wad and jumping the gun, bending over and lubing up. Basically leaving yourself wide open for your opponent to either fold (not making much money if he has a solid hand), or call (having the better hand).

I like calling in this situation, only after you think about it for a minute. See what he does on the turn, call if he raises, check if he checks. On the river reraise for 1.5X the amount he bet. This will piss off a bad maniac player and incite him into going back at you. However this is all based on the fact that the turn and river are blanks. If they aren't, maybe show up stronger on the turn with a slightly nice reraise, and then if the river could give him something like a flush, a better boat (double pair board), or something like that, call him down on the river.
Old 08-28-06, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gimmepilotwings
You knew he had no 3?


He means at that moment his mindframe he knew he couldn't have a 3. Of course he was very very wrong. The only way I'd play with the idea of him having a 3 is if he is very very very tight and coming strong, and looking for reads of course (shakey hands, etc). Or maybe if I was close to the money in a huge MTT.
Old 08-28-06, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
On a more serious note, it's hard to lay down a hand like this. The bad play occurring isn't because you couldn't sniff out the other A3. Afterall, he could have 38, 37, etc. The only way you could have known is if he you can read minds. Your 9 is a very decent kicker in this situation.
I disagree, he was the BB. Who else throws their money, pre flop, into the pot with a 3 AND a worse kicker?

As for the rest, I am not sure the OP has explained well, but as I understand it "the fish" is not the guy who had the other 3. So, what he's saying is his bet was designed with the fish in mind, and the other guy caught him by surprise.
Old 08-28-06, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LurkerDan
I disagree, he was the BB. Who else throws their money, pre flop, into the pot with a 3 AND a worse kicker?
If it's a NL game or a tourney and there are lots of limpers and I can see the flop for really cheap, I'll play 43s and hope for the magical A25 flop since you can extract a ton of money from people with an ace in their hand if you happen to hit the flop hard.
Old 08-28-06, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LurkerDan
I disagree, he was the BB. Who else throws their money, pre flop, into the pot with a 3 AND a worse kicker?

As for the rest, I am not sure the OP has explained well, but as I understand it "the fish" is not the guy who had the other 3. So, what he's saying is his bet was designed with the fish in mind, and the other guy caught him by surprise.
Agree here.
So lets say he plays it a bit differently. Lets say that he pops it back with a single raise, $24 to go. Depending on the player, (and how good he is) he could have been pot committed by the river.

A single raise would have been my play here. You need to know how good your 9 kicker is. A reraise and I would probably have to let that go.
Old 08-28-06, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gimmepilotwings
Agree here.
So lets say he plays it a bit differently. Lets say that he pops it back with a single raise, $24 to go. Depending on the player, (and how good he is) he could have been pot committed by the river.

A single raise would have been my play here. You need to know how good your 9 kicker is. A reraise and I would probably have to let that go.
I agree. That what I think both me and El Scorcho were saying.

Going all in to trap a fish when you do not have the nuts when there are people betting behind you doesn't seem like a great move to me. I'd be worried what kind of a kicker someone else who had the other 3 could have. Or worse, if someone has a high pocket pair they can't fold and then they fill up after (wrongly at the time) calling the all-in. Or goddamned, what about 88.

Now, if I had 88 in that situation I might consider the all-in, though I'd rather win the whole thing slowly and maximize the bets I take down.
Old 08-28-06, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bushdog
I agree. That what I think both me and El Scorcho were saying.

Going all in to trap a fish when you do not have the nuts when there are people betting behind you doesn't seem like a great move to me. I'd be worried what kind of a kicker someone else who had the other 3 could have. Or worse, if someone has a high pocket pair they can't fold and then they fill up after (wrongly at the time) calling the all-in. Or goddamned, what about 88.

Now, if I had 88 in that situation I might consider the all-in, though I'd rather win the whole thing slowly and maximize the bets I take down.
With 88, you go all in, and then the other guy turns over 33.
Old 08-28-06, 09:24 PM
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No I agre, I should have thought of the other p-layer behind and forget about him, just had the fish in mind, but the way the turn and river came i think I would hve still bet all my money just putting someone on 2 pair.

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