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tbird2340 10-28-05 10:11 AM

Immunizing Children - Should it Still be Done?
 
My wife and I are expecting are first child in January.. We are just starting to look into which immunizations we should allow our child to get. A friend of mine in the natural medicine field said he would not be letting his child get any (I think he said any but he may have just said 'some') immunizations. He said a lot of them lead to autism and other things..

I'm not going to use this thread as the main factor for what we are going to do (obviously) but I do want to see peoples opinions.

Thanks :up:

Y2K Falcon 10-28-05 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
He said a lot of them lead to autism and other things.

Like lack of disease?

Groucho 10-28-05 10:16 AM

Of course it should be done.

The whole "autism caused by immunization" thing was based on a lawsuit in the UK which was thrown out of court. There's no connection at all.

Your "friend" is giving you horribly dangerous advice.

jdodd 10-28-05 10:17 AM

There is zero credible evidence linking immunization to autism.

Green Jello 10-28-05 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by jdodd
There is zero credible evidence linking immunization to autism.

Any the only evidence there was (minimal) was linked to the preservative which is now no longer used in the shots.

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:27 AM


Originally Posted by Groucho
Of course it should be done.

The whole "autism caused by immunization" thing was based on a lawsuit in the UK which was thrown out of court. There's no connection at all.

Your "friend" is giving you horribly dangerous advice.

Well. I will tend to believe that my "friend" may be slightly more educated in this then you. He didn't just say "don't do it. it will kill your baby." He is VERY knowledgeable in this area and I tend to believe what he has to say.

This is not saying that I won't get vaccines for the baby.. Just that I'm entertaining the thought of not.

And this is a pretty popular debate. Just look at the amount of books are written about it when I search for "Vaccine Children" at bn.com:

Link

al_bundy 10-28-05 10:28 AM

i bet he is knowledgable in info he gets from wacko websites

Y2K Falcon 10-28-05 10:29 AM

Will you not be feeding your child beef because of mad cow disease?
Will your child not go to the park because of bird flu?
Will your child not ever ride in a car or breathe, or drink water (flouridated or otherwise), not to mention non-organic meat/milk?

Green Jello 10-28-05 10:29 AM

For what it's worth, my wife works with Autistic kids for a living and spends a great deal of time reading up on this subject. We just had our first child 5 weeks ago and he WILL be getting all his immunizations.

Also, many puplic schools are now requiring them anyway. So if you don't have the money for private school, you might not have a choice.

Shazam 10-28-05 10:29 AM

And what will you do when your kid gets Polio? Get the "natural" Polio cure?

Nazgul 10-28-05 10:31 AM

We've just been through the 2nd and 4th month immunizations with our girl and we've had no issues at all. I was a bit worried as well about the supposed link to autism, but there was no real evidence to support my concerns. Green Jello is correct about the mercury as well.

To be honest what really swayed me was that our Family Doc, has two kids of her own and she had them immunized w/o concern.

Also, parents may get away with skipping some immunizations for their kids, but once they start to interact with others (i.e Daycare or Preschool), you run the high risk of some real medical problems.

Y2K Falcon 10-28-05 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by Green Jello
For what it's worth, my wife works with Autistic kids for a living and spends a great deal of time reading up on this subject.

Well, to be fair, the OP said that his "friend" was more knowledgeable than YOU, not your wife. ;)

My guess is that the 'friend' either has no kids, or they are "home-schooled".

And vegetarian.
(not that there's anything wrong with that)
( :wave: Jadzia )

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:33 AM

So are these pretty much the norm for child vaccines?

#DPT: Combined Diphtheria, Pertussis (Whooping cough) and Tetanus

#Rubeola (Measles)

#MMR: Combined Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German, or "three-day" measles)

#Hepatitis B

#Polio

#Pneumococcal pneumonia

#Hemophilus meningitis

#Rotavirus

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:34 AM


Originally Posted by Green Jello
Also, many puplic schools are now requiring them anyway. So if you don't have the money for private school, you might not have a choice.

That isn't true. You can sign a waiver that states you didn't immunize due to religious belief.

Groucho 10-28-05 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
And this is a pretty popular debate. Just look at the amount of books are written about it when I search for "Vaccine Children" at bn.com

Just because a point of view is popular, doesn't mean it's correct.

What's really sad is that a lot of diseases that we haven't seen for decades are now coming back because of this quackery. The "natural medicine" people are rolling in the dough selling their "hollistic" herbs and crap, meanwhile it's the children who are suffering.

At least you're taking the time to do the research rather than take your friends word first-hand.

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by Shazam
And what will you do when your kid gets Polio? Get the "natural" Polio cure?

When was the last case of polio? A quick search said it was back in 1979.

And look.. People.. Don't get all defensive and call me or my "friend" stupid.. I'm just trying to find out what is best for our child. Obviously 99% of people are going to state to get them and that's fine.. But please state why. Not just that because it's the "norm".

Think about who the biggest money maker in the US is? Health care?

Y2K Falcon 10-28-05 10:37 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Think about who the biggest money maker in the US is? Health care?

Gas companies.

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:37 AM

Ok. Then ONE of the biggest. ;)

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:40 AM


Originally Posted by Groucho
What's really sad is that a lot of diseases that we haven't seen for decades are now coming back because of this quackery. The "natural medicine" people are rolling in the dough selling their "hollistic" herbs and crap, meanwhile it's the children who are suffering.

And the drug companies aren't rolling in their money prescribing and making a drug for every single thing you can think of? Oh yea.. But there is also 4,000 side effect.. But hey you'll get hard! (In rare cases your erection may last more then 4 hours...)


Originally Posted by Groucho
At least you're taking the time to do the research rather than take your friends word first-hand.

Definately.. I'm not just taking anyone's word..

wildcatlh 10-28-05 10:41 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
When was the last case of polio? A quick search said it was back in 1979.

And look.. People.. Don't get all defensive and call me or my "friend" stupid.. I'm just trying to find out what is best for our child. Obviously 99% of people are going to state to get them and that's fine.. But please state why. Not just that because it's the "norm".

Think about who the biggest money maker in the US is? Health care?

Try this year, up in Minnesota (or one of the states around there), several cases.

And your "friend" IS stupid. Sorry. There's no other word for it. If he's not going to immunize his children because of some totally discredited links to autism, he's stupid. If you listen to him and refuse to get your children immunized, YOU'RE stupid. That's the way it is.

There is NO credible link to autism. With vaccines, you always have the possibility, and some children do have serious reactions to the vaccines. But that is quite rare, and it is not a reason to refuse to vaccinate.

Nazgul 10-28-05 10:42 AM


Originally Posted by Groucho
What's really sad is that a lot of diseases that we haven't seen for decades are now coming back because of this quackery. The "natural medicine" people are rolling in the dough selling their "hollistic" herbs and crap, meanwhile it's the children who are suffering.

"In 1974, Japan had a successful pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination program, with nearly 80% of Japanese children vaccinated. That year only 393 cases of pertussis were reported in the entire country, and there were no deaths from pertussis. But then rumors began to spread that pertussis vaccination was no longer needed and that the vaccine was not safe, and by 1976 only 10% of infants were getting vaccinated. In 1979 Japan suffered a major pertussis epidemic, with more than 13,000 cases of whooping cough and 41 deaths. In 1981 the government began vaccinating with acellular pertussis vaccine, and the number of pertussis cases dropped again."

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/fs/gen/Why.htm

bigsoos 10-28-05 10:43 AM

Just b/c there are books out doesn't mean that its the necessarily the truth.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/news/iom-thim5-18-04.htm

* neither thimerosal-containing vaccines or MMR vaccine are associated with autism.

* the hypotheses regarding a link between autism and MMR vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines lack supporting evidence and are only theoretical.

* future research to find the cause of autism should be directed toward other promising lines of inquiry that are supported by current knowledge and evidence and offer more promise for providing an answer.

cajun_junky 10-28-05 10:49 AM

All 3 of my children were vaccinated. The current scientific literature does not support a correlation between vaccinations and autism. IMO, the benefits clearly outweigh the small, if any, risk at this point. Perhaps if further research down the road shows a clear correlation then my opinion may change.

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:50 AM


Originally Posted by WildcatLH
Try this year, up in Minnesota (or one of the states around there), several cases.

Do you have a link to this?


Originally Posted by WildcatLH
And your "friend" IS stupid. Sorry. There's no other word for it. If he's not going to immunize his children because of some totally discredited links to autism, he's stupid. If you listen to him and refuse to get your children immunized, YOU'RE stupid. That's the way it is.

Well thanks.. I guess it's 100% I will do it then.. "Honey, someone on DVDTalk said WE'RE stupid if we don't.. And that's just the way it is. No he didn't provide any real factual evidence.. Just we are stupid and so is our "friend" if we don't."


Originally Posted by WildcatLH
There is NO credible link to autism. With vaccines, you always have the possibility, and some children do have serious reactions to the vaccines. But that is quite rare, and it is not a reason to refuse to vaccinate.

I don't think the only thing to worry about was the autism.. It's been a while since I talked to this "nutjob"..

tbird2340 10-28-05 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by Nazgul
"In 1974, Japan had a successful pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination program, with nearly 80% of Japanese children vaccinated. That year only 393 cases of pertussis were reported in the entire country, and there were no deaths from pertussis. But then rumors began to spread that pertussis vaccination was no longer needed and that the vaccine was not safe, and by 1976 only 10% of infants were getting vaccinated. In 1979 Japan suffered a major pertussis epidemic, with more than 13,000 cases of whooping cough and 41 deaths. In 1981 the government began vaccinating with acellular pertussis vaccine, and the number of pertussis cases dropped again."

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/fs/gen/Why.htm

Woooh... Thanks for that. :up:

Deftones 10-28-05 10:54 AM

I think the fact that says you are relying solely on what a friend said instead of investigating this yourself says alot.

Groucho 10-28-05 10:56 AM

Global Case Count for Polio, 2005

Currently at 1414, last updated October 25.

Doesn't appear to include the Minnesota Cases.

Jadzia 10-28-05 10:58 AM

Most of the "diseases" that infants are immunized against are less scary than the side effects of the vaccines. I mean, come on, a chicken pox vaccine? That one doesn't even work and when it wears off, you end up getting chicken pox as an adult which is much more serious.

When most of us were infants we got a few vaccines. Now children receive something like 27 vaccines by the time they are 6 years old. It is just crazy to think it is healthy to pump little babies blood streams with dangerous chemicals and germs and have them not be affected. The drug companies keep inroducing these new vaccines but they never do long term studies n the cumulative effects of pumping kids with so much stuff. I really believe their little bodies can not handle it which is why so many kids are now developing neurological problems and allergies.

Before anyone gets their child immunized they should at least question and do research. Read the ingredients on a vaccine insert. Research the diseases, the risk of the diseases and the risks of the side effects. Say no to the vaxes that do not make sense to you. We declined the Hep B vaccine at birth, because I am not a carrier and I see no logic of vaccinating a baby against a sexually tranmitted disease. And I know there are many babies who have died because of this vaccine. That is just not a risk I was willing to take with my infant.

We got the 2, 4 and 6 month shots but I am regretting those as I felt bullied because I had not yet finished my research. We declined the MMR and the 12 month shots and I am delaying giving any more to my chld until he is older and I can fully research everything.

tbird2340, I recommend you visit thisforum which has a ton of links to info that can help you in your research. There are some great mamas (and daddys) there who think for themselves and do not fall in line with the crap that the CDC spews.

There has been a ton of misinformation regurgitated in this thread already and I don't have time to de-bunk it all, but let me ask a few questions to the people who think all vaxes are great:
If mercury was not harmful and did not cause autism, then why was it removed just a few years ago? Why did the autism rate dramatically increase in 1991 which coincided with the recommeded vax schedule massive ncreasing the number of shots? Why was autism unknown before the introduction of thimerosol in the 1930s? Why is it unknown in other countries until we started importing our vaxes to them?

And for the record, the mercury is still there. A group took samples of vaccines and had them tested and they still contained mercury. Plus there is other crap in vaccines like aluminum and formaldehyde which are just as harmful.

Anyway, I have said my piece. Tbird-- good for you for thinking for yourself in this issue and wanting to do the right thing! Too many parents just blindly follow advice by the medical community that is just not sound, without doing their own research. Congrats on the pregnancy and my #1 piece of advice for ensuring the health of your infant: BREASTFEEDING! :)

tbird2340 10-28-05 11:00 AM


Originally Posted by Deftones
I think the fact that says you are relying solely on what a friend said instead of investigating this yourself says alot.


I think you must not read. And that says a lot.

I said NUMEROUS times:

"We are just starting to look into which immunizations we should allow our child to get."

"I'm not going to use this thread as the main factor for what we are going to do (obviously) but I do want to see peoples opinions."

"This is not saying that I won't get vaccines for the baby.. Just that I'm entertaining the thought of not."

"Definately.. I'm not just taking anyone's word.."

And one more time just in case those don't get that point across..

I am in the process of RESEARCHING / asking others, reading books, searching the net, etc. I am in no means leaning towards my FRIENDS way of thinking.. I'm actually leaning towards the norm (which it to vaccinate). But being that everyone's replies were TO do it I decided to play devils advocate to try and get some facts...

mrpayroll 10-28-05 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by Y2K Falcon
Gas companies.

Repost!

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443022


-ohbfrank-

Chris

Shazam 10-28-05 11:03 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
When was the last case of polio? A quick search said it was back in 1979.

What search was that with?!? I typed "polio cases us" into Google and the FIRST link was this:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9687419/

You've got to be brain dead not to vaccinate. You see, the diseases that vaccinations prevent are very SERIOUS and DEBILITATING. Often, the diseases have NO CURE - in other words, the ONLY way to not have the disease is to not get it in the first place.

And do you have proof that your "friend" has any idea what he's talking about?

wildcatlh 10-28-05 11:03 AM

Most studies say that autism wasn't any less common earlier, we just didn't know what it was and it wasn't diagnosed. Now we can recognize it and diagnose it, and it just LOOKS like there's more cases.

As for breastfeeding, you do realize that the only reason that breastfeeding passes on temporary immune resistance is that the mother is already immune, right? If the mother didn't have her vaccinations and wasn't already immune, breast milk wouldn't do a thing for those diseases.

What I'm scared of is that there are going to be diseases we killed off long, long ago that return because of people who refuse to vaccinate because of some theory that it may cause side effects that is unproven, unresearched, and has zero real evidence behind it.

tbird2340 10-28-05 11:03 AM


Originally Posted by Groucho
Global Case Count for Polio, 2005

Currently at 1414, last updated October 25.

Doesn't appear to include the Minnesota Cases.

Thanks a lot for that link Groucho.. :up:

Groucho 10-28-05 11:06 AM

Penn and Teller should do a show about this.

tbird2340 10-28-05 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
Most of the "diseases" that infants are immunized against are less scary than the side effects of the vaccines. I mean, come on, a chicken pox vaccine? That one doesn't even work and when it wears off, you end up getting chicken pox as an adult which is much more serious.

When most of us were infants we got a few vaccines. Now children receive something like 27 vaccines by the time they are 6 years old. It is just crazy to think it is healthy to pump little babies blood streams with dangerous chemicals and germs and have them not be affected. The drug companies keep inroducing these new vaccines but they never do long term studies n the cumulative effects of pumping kids with so much stuff. I really believe their little bodies can not handle it which is why so many kids are now developing neurological problems and allergies.

Before anyone gets their child immunized they should at least question and do research. Read the ingredients on a vaccine insert. Research the diseases, the risk of the diseases and the risks of the side effects. Say no to the vaxes that do not make sense to you. We declined the Hep B vaccine at birth, because I am not a carrier and I see no logic of vaccinating a baby against a sexually tranmitted disease. And I know there are many babies who have died because of this vaccine. That is just not a risk I was willing to take with my infant.

We got the 2, 4 and 6 month shots but I am regretting those as I felt bullied because I had not yet finished my research. We declined the MMR and the 12 month shots and I am delaying giving any more to my chld until he is older and I can fully research everything.

tbird2340, I recommend you visit thisforum which has a ton of links to info that can help you in your research. There are some great mamas (and daddys) there who think for themselves and do not fall in line with the crap that the CDC spews.

There has been a ton of misinformation regurgitated in this thread already and I don't have time to de-bunk it all, but let me ask a few questions to the people who think all vaxes are great:
If mercury was not harmful and did not cause autism, then why was it removed just a few years ago? Why did the autism rate dramatically increase in 1991 which coincided with the recommeded vax schedule massive ncreasing the number of shots? Why was autism unknown before the introduction of thimerosol in the 1930s? Why is it unknown in other countries until we started importing our vaxes to them?

And for the record, the mercury is still there. A group took samples of vaccines and had them tested and they still contained mercury. Plus there is other crap in vaccines like aluminum and formaldehyde which are just as harmful.

Anyway, I have said my piece. Tbird-- good for you for thinking for yourself in this issue and wanting to do the right thing! Too many parents just blindly follow advice by the medical community that is just not sound, without doing their own research. Congrats on the pregnancy and my #1 piece of advice for ensuring the health of your infant: BREASTFEEDING! :)

Thanks a lot for this post Jazdia. I'm guessing more posters then not are just posting what they are because they feel "it's the right thing to do" and not researching it themselves.

tbird2340 10-28-05 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by Groucho
Penn and Teller should do a show about this.

:lol:

Groucho 10-28-05 11:10 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Thanks a lot for this post Jazdia. I'm guessing more posters then not are just posting what they are because they feel "it's the right thing to do" and not researching it themselves.

It should be pointed out that I'm a parent, and I have researched this myself.

In the interest of full disclosure, my kids are fully vaccinized.

Nazgul 10-28-05 11:12 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Thanks a lot for this post Jazdia. I'm guessing more posters then not are just posting what they are because they feel "it's the right thing to do" and not researching it themselves.

I don't think you should assume that others are not researching it themselves. I could find plenty of 'evidence' that the Holocaust never occured.

As for the argument that some of this is hype stirred up by the drug companies and Health Care, what's more expensive, a few shots or long-term care due to a disease that could have been prevented?

Shazam 10-28-05 11:14 AM


Why was autism unknown before the introduction of thimerosol in the 1930s?
Show me a causation between the two, not a correlation. You do know the difference, right?


Why did the autism rate dramatically increase in 1991 which coincided with the recommeded vax schedule massive ncreasing the number of shots?
Show me a causation between the two, not a correlation. You do know the difference, right?


Plus there is other crap in vaccines like aluminum and formaldehyde which are just as harmful.
Like I have said to you in previous threads but you seem to not accept, Formaldehyde is formed by the body when eating.

bigsoos 10-28-05 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
There has been a ton of misinformation regurgitated in this thread already and I don't have time to de-bunk it all, but let me ask a few questions to the people who think all vaxes are great:
If mercury was not harmful and did not cause autism, then why was it removed just a few years ago? Why did the autism rate dramatically increase in 1991 which coincided with the recommeded vax schedule massive ncreasing the number of shots? Why was autism unknown before the introduction of thimerosol in the 1930s? Why is it unknown in other countries until we started importing our vaxes to them?

http://kidshealth.org/parent/general...nizations.html

1) In an effort to reduce childhood exposure to mercury and other heavy metals, thimerosal began being removed from kids' vaccines in 1999.

2,3,4) So what could explain the increased rates of autism in recent years? For one thing, there's a broader definition of autism that can be applied to more children who show varying degrees of symptoms. A greater awareness of the condition among health professionals has also led to more diagnoses.

And although the number of children diagnosed with autism may be increasing, the rates of MMR vaccination are not. In London, diagnosis of autistic disorders has been on the rise since 1979 but rates of MMR vaccination haven't increased since routine MMR vaccination began in 1988.

In addition, the average age of diagnosis of autism has been found to be the same in both children who have and who have not received the MMR vaccine. What many researchers are discovering is that subtle symptoms of autism are often present before a child's first birthday - sometimes even in early infancy - but often go unnoticed until the symptoms are more obvious to parents.


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