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Jadzia 10-28-05 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
:lol:

Guess you have never met a parent of a vaccine-injured child.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

wildcatlh 10-28-05 08:09 PM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
Guess you have never met a parent of a vaccine-injured child.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

Nobody said that there wasn't such a thing as vaccine-related injury. Unfortunately, someone, somewhere can have a serious, even deadly, reaction, to anything that can be eaten, drunk, or injected by 99.99% of people without so much as a sniffle.

It happens. It's exceedingly rare. But it happens.

The Cow 10-28-05 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by Groucho
In the interest of full disclosure, my kids are fully vaccinized.

So... Your kids are full of it?

Jadzia 10-28-05 08:21 PM


Originally Posted by WildcatLH
Nobody said that there wasn't such a thing as vaccine-related injury. Unfortunately, someone, somewhere can have a serious, even deadly, reaction, to anything that can be eaten, drunk, or injected by 99.99% of people without so much as a sniffle.

It happens. It's exceedingly rare. But it happens.

I am just saying it is not as rare as one might think. That is why you need to research each disease and the vax and decide if it is worth the risk. And some of the diseases they are vaxing for now are not as serious or as risky as the side effects-- or the cumulative effect of that many vaccines on a small, developing body.

That is why I recommend selectively vaxing. Just because the drug companies invent some new vaccine doesn't mean you should blindly follow the CDC/AAP's advice to pump something in your child's bloodstream. Cases in point: Hep B at birth, varicella, flu shots etc. These are all recommended and most people just blindly inject them into their precious infant without question because the almighty doctor says so.

It is all about being an informed consumer. And just reading the CDC handout/propaganda you are given at the doctor's office does not constitue research.

A great book I would recommend is "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Immunizations" by Dr. Stephanie Cave. She sifts through a lot of facts and fiction and proposes a more common sense vaccination schedule than the crazy one they currently foist on parents.

Recca 10-28-05 08:35 PM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
Guess you have never met a parent of a vaccine-injured child.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

Nice site. Some of the highlights.

From the VAERS Data section

VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines.

* Over ten million vaccinations per year are given to children less than one year old, usually between 2 months and 6 months of age. At this age, infants are at greatest risk for certain medical events, including high fevers, seizures, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Some infants will by coincidence experience such an event shortly after a vaccination.
* These coincidences make it difficult to know whether a particular adverse event resulted from a concurrent condition or from a vaccination. Therefore, doctors and other vaccine providers are encouraged to report all adverse events following vaccinations, whether or not they believe that the vaccination was the cause.

From the Frequently Asked Questions


What is VAERS? top

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national vaccine safety surveillance program co-sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). VAERS collects and analyzes information from reports of adverse events following immunization. Since 1990, VAERS has received over 123,000 reports, most of which describe mild side effects such as fever. Very rarely, people experience serious adverse events following immunization. By monitoring such events, VAERS helps to identify any important new safety concerns and thereby assists in ensuring that the benefits of vaccines continue to be far greater than the risks.

So if we take their estimate of 10 million vaccines per year, account for 15 years since 1990 (not counting 2005), and the 123,000 reports of adverse effects since 1990, we can do some math.

10,000,000 x 15 = 150,000,000 vaccines administered since 1990

123,000/150,000,000 = .00082 or .082% incidence rate of adverse effects from vaccines administered since 1990, many of which are fairly minor, such as fever

Granted, it's a very rough calculation and I'm sure there were some cases that weren't reported, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Nick Danger 10-28-05 08:41 PM

There's a philosophical argument underlying vaccination. Last year, The Economist described it this way:

Vaccinations have a non-zero chance of making the child sick. If every other person in the population has been vaccinated, there is a zero chance of the child catching a disease. If most other people in the population have been vaccinated, the chances of the child catching a disease are still pretty small, because diseases won't have enough transmission routes for them to spread.

But when you reach a magic number of unvaccinated children, there is suddenly the risk of an epidemic. There are now enough transmission routes, and none of the subpopulation has any defenses. Then the social cost is staggering, and we all have to pay it. So it is in society's best interest to have as many people immunized as possible.

Bandoman 10-28-05 08:43 PM

There are people who react to any medication or vaccination. As Jadzia stated, you need to review the list of proposed vaccinations and weight the risk of the disease against the risk of the vaccination. In most cases, I would think those factors would balance in favor of having your child vaccinated. At least they did for me. There are some, however (like the chicken pox one) that we decided to skip.

Jadzia 10-28-05 09:44 PM


Originally Posted by Bandoman
There are people who react to any medication or vaccination. As Jadzia stated, you need to review the list of proposed vaccinations and weight the risk of the disease against the risk of the vaccination. In most cases, I would think those factors would balance in favor of having your child vaccinated. At least they did for me. There are some, however (like the chicken pox one) that we decided to skip.

:up:

My child is at home with me all day and is rarely exposed to strangers or other kids. I'd probably feel differently about limiting vaccine exposure if he was in day care. Which is why I have decided to delay the rest of the shots (that we plan on getting) until he is school-age and at more risk of contracting stuff from other kids. This also allows his immune system to build itself strongly on its own and also minimizes the risk of the cumulative effects of too many vaccines and the harmful contaminants.

I truly believe that autism is caused by the inablity of many children to fully process out all the toxins that are present in vaccines. I don't think a few shots are enough to cause damage (except in rare cases) and just a few shots is what most of us received when we were children (my mom also delayed vax until 5 for me and skipped them altogether for my older sister).

The current recommended vaccine schedule is just so aggressive for infants & toddlers and this is when their little brains are forming the most. The more toxic chemicals they are pumped with in such a short time makes it difficult for their bodies to process out before they cross the blood-brain barrier.

When they dramatically ramped up the vaccination schedule in the late 80's/early 90's is when autism really became the epidemic that is now (1 in 166 kids now which is insane!). Debate if its causation or correlation or whatever but that is just too coincidental for me and backs up many of my common sense instincts about how the body processes things. I'd rather be overly cautious and not risk my son's mental capacity for something that is not necessary.

Jadzia 10-28-05 09:59 PM


Originally Posted by Nick Danger
Vaccinations have a non-zero chance of making the child sick.

That is actually not true. In fact, many times the vaccines cause the disease they are designed to prevent. Most of the cases of the diseases that crop up occur in vaccinated children. It always amazes me how people of vaccinated kids get so scared of non-vaxed kids. If you are so certain that vaxes work, why would you be worried about your kids catching anything?

I have heard that during the polio epidemic many of the people that came down with the worst cases were already given the vaccine shot. However, they would not consider a person vaxed because they sometimes had to give the shot two or three times. So if the person came down with polio they just assumed the first shot didn't "take".

Let us not forget that most vaccines partially introduce the germs into the body in the first place. In many cases this can lead to the person catching the disease or more often, a recently vaxed individual can spread the germs to another person.

There is an interesting chart I have seen that shows the rate of disease compared to the introduction of the vaccine. It showed that the rate of the disease peaks AFTER the vaccines introduction which I find intereting. I'll have to see if I can find that link when I have time, I remember someone posted it on the Vaccines Board/Mothering forum I linked earlier.


Then the social cost is staggering, and we all have to pay it. So it is in society's best interest to have as many people immunized as possible.
Ah, the old "herd immunity"/good of society argument. Something like the health of a child really can't be measured in such terms, can it? If a vaccine killed or harmed your child, would you really feel better knowing it was good for other kids?

I find that idea rather Big Brotherish and somewhat frightening. It would be like the state mandating gastric bypass for all obese people. Sure it would probably save many people's lives overall, but if you were one of the people who died from complications on the operating table that wouldn't make you feel better about being forced into surgery.

Rockmjd23 10-29-05 03:29 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
Guess you have never met a parent of a vaccine-injured child.

http://vaers.hhs.gov/

You said most of these diseases are less scary than the vaccine side effects. Care to tell me which ones?:

Originally Posted by tbird2340
So are these pretty much the norm for child vaccines?

#DPT: Combined Diphtheria, Pertussis (Whooping cough) and Tetanus

#Rubeola (Measles)

#MMR: Combined Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German, or "three-day" measles)

#Hepatitis B

#Polio

#Pneumococcal pneumonia

#Hemophilus meningitis

#Rotavirus


matchpenalty 10-29-05 03:32 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
When was the last case of polio? A quick search said it was back in 1979.

And look.. People.. Don't get all defensive and call me or my "friend" stupid.. I'm just trying to find out what is best for our child. Obviously 99% of people are going to state to get them and that's fine.. But please state why. Not just that because it's the "norm".

Think about who the biggest money maker in the US is? Health care?

you need to read up ....there have been polio outbreaks in the US in unvaccinated populations. Big thing in the Amish community. Remember reading something pretty recently. Some there are getting the vaccine now. This is 2005, just found a link : http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5667098.html

It is your choice to do what you want. I would never avoid giving my child vaccinations unless there was a family history of a reaction to a specific vaccine or component.

Here is a handy site: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/menus/vacc_safety.htm#issues

specifically about what you were mentioning:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/conce...autism-mmr.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/conce...research.htm#8

The preservative someone referred to is thimerosal.

matchpenalty 10-29-05 03:36 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
Vaccinations have a non-zero chance of making the child sick.

That is actually not true. In fact, many times the vaccines cause the disease they are designed to prevent. .

Jadzia.

He said (and you quoted) that there is a NON-zero chance of making the child sick.. That means he recognizes there is a chance of illness.


Rockmjd23

One vaccine where side effects vs. disease might be a good question is the one for chicken pox. You might not even get full immunity though any case is supposed to be mild if you get the shot. This is one I was even questioning for my kids, but my wife would hear none of it. Felt better after speaking with a relative who knows a ton about this stuff.

matchpenalty 10-29-05 03:53 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
:up:

When they dramatically ramped up the vaccination schedule in the late 80's/early 90's is when autism really became the epidemic that is now (1 in 166 kids now which is insane!).

Where did you get this statistic? Is it classic autism you are referring to , or ASD (autistic spectrum disorder)?

Also, if it is ASD, does it take into account the fact that many of these kids went undiagnosed in the past? They were just labeled as socially inept, hyperactive, or some other thing...Now schools are required to provide for all kids, so there is more diagnosis of actual developmental defecits. I remember growing up the system tended to call kids retarded or learning disabled pretty frequently and didn't really get at the issue why some kids had difficulty learning.

Does your number take into account other major issues, like water quality, fluoridation, globalization of the food supply (exposure to water quality from elsewhere), pesticides, and on and on.....There are a lot of things that have changed from the 70s and 80s. There are a lot of toxic things out there. Who was testing for radon exposure in homes back then? Kids were playing in basements and being exposed...

Rockmjd23 10-29-05 04:11 AM


Originally Posted by matchpenalty
Rockmjd23

One vaccine where side effects vs. disease might be a good question is the one for chicken pox. You might not even get full immunity though any case is supposed to be mild if you get the shot. This is one I was even questioning for my kids, but my wife would hear none of it. Felt better after speaking with a relative who knows a ton about this stuff.

The chicken pox vaccine is still very controversial and not universally administered. I was responding to the ridiculous statement that most diseases are less serious than their vaccine side effects. Serious side effects are extremely rare and the risk/benefit ratio should be based on its benefit to everyone rather than its benefit to an individual. For example, we give a vaccine for Rubella not because it will kill you, but because it causes severe birth defects in fetuses. You can risk contracting it and get a mild case, but then pass it to a pregnant woman, and cause her child to deform.

Mr. Salty 10-29-05 04:38 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Is this a serious question? If so.. I think he got his GED when he was 32.. How's that?

So, you're taking medical advice from a guy who got his high school diploma when he was in his 30s?


Originally Posted by Jadzia
It is all about being an informed consumer. And just reading the CDC handout/propaganda you are given at the doctor's office does not constitue research.

Forgive me if I can't help but think someone who uses a loaded word like "propaganda" to describe ideas counter to his or her own is a person who seeks out opinions that supports his or her own while dismissing research that runs counter to what he or she wants to hear.

tbird2340 10-29-05 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by Mr. Salty
So, you're taking medical advice from a guy who got his high school diploma when he was in his 30s?

That was a joke. ;)

That's just what everyone makes him out to be. If I say he graduated from Harvard and is one of the most prominent "natural medicine" doctors in the world I think it would hardly make a difference for people here.

twikoff 10-29-05 10:26 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
If I say he graduated from Harvard and is one of the most prominent "natural medicine" doctors in the world I think it would hardly make a difference for people here.

sure it would
it was drastically lessen our opinion of a harvard education
;)

tbird2340 10-29-05 10:47 AM

:lol:

Good one :up:

tasha99 10-29-05 05:24 PM

The thing about chicken pox is that it can be serious. Most people used to catch it as a kid, but I worry that now, kids who aren't vaccinated may not be exposed to it till later in life when they're more at risk for the disease to do real harm (during pregnancy, for example). We don't give aspirin to children because of Reye's Syndrome, but could an adult who hasn't been exposed to chicken pox get that if he or she felt ill, took aspirin, and then starting showing signs of chicken pox?

I'm not a fan of the chicken pox vaccine, but I vaccinated my youngest child against it because I was concerned that he might not get the antibodies at all without the vaccination (since it isn't as common as it used to be).

Bubba 10-29-05 08:07 PM

I am an internal medicine doc and my son has had all his shots.

However, I would have to advise you to not get your kids vaccinated. Why? you ask. Well, I have spent 4 years in med school learning about all these diseases and as of yet, have not had the opportunity to see any of them.
So please don't let my $32,000/yr go to waste, say no to vaccinations. :D2:

Recca, don't confuse these people with a bunch of silly math ;)

P.S. And another thing, just because a 50 year old school nurse with a 2 year associates degree says your kid has autism or ADD, doesn't make it so.

criptik28 10-29-05 10:08 PM

Yes, absolutely.

matta 10-29-05 10:12 PM

From what I remember, proof of certain immunizations are required to go to school. In fact, I remember getting some before I could go to college.

criptik28 10-29-05 10:12 PM


Originally Posted by Draven
Until a pediatrician wanders in here, I'm going to stick to my story.

Don't think we have any DVDTalkers who are pediatricians...lots of other fields are covered though.

dork 10-29-05 10:14 PM


Originally Posted by criptik28
Don't think we have any DVDTalkers who are pediatricians...lots of other fields are covered though.

Exactly. For example, as a veterinarian, I strongly advise you to remove your child's sexual organs.

dave-o 10-29-05 11:49 PM

I have all the research you need right here, if a fictional (and very unrealistic but fun to watch) Doctor says to get them, you should get them. ;) (ok, so I have nothing substantial to add that hasn't been said already, but this thread reminded me of this great scene, so here it is).



Dr. Gregory House: [examining a baby] No fever, glands normal. Missing her vaccination dates.

Young Mother: We're not vaccinating.

Dr. Gregory House: Think they don't work?

Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.

Dr. Gregory House: Mmmm. May I?
[he takes the baby's frog and starts to do a gribbit noise with the baby]

Young Mother: Sure.

Dr. Gregory House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.
[the baby laughs]

Dr. Gregory House: All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

Young Mother: Tell me what she has.

Dr. Gregory House: A cold.


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