Other Talk "Otterville" plus Religion/Politics

Florida to allow use of force even outside home

Old 04-26-05, 05:52 PM
  #1  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 16,173
Florida to allow use of force even outside home

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/05/deadly.force.ap/

'Good, common sense, anti-crime issue'
Tuesday, April 5, 2005 Posted: 8:04 PM EDT (0004 GMT)




TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he intends to sign a bill that would allow people who feel threatened -- even on the street or at a baseball game -- to "meet force with force" and defend themselves without fear of prosecution.

The measure, the top priority of the National Rifle Association in Florida this year, passed the House 94-20 on Tuesday. It had already passed the Senate.

Bush, who has championed tougher penalties for people convicted of using guns in crimes, said the bill is about self-defense and called it "a good, common sense, anti-crime issue."

The measure essentially extends a right Floridians already have in their home or car. Under present law, however, people attacked anywhere else are supposed to do what they can to avoid escalating the situation and can use deadly force only after they've tried to retreat.

"I'm sorry, people, but if I'm attacked I shouldn't have a duty to retreat," said the bill's sponsor, state Rep. Dennis Baxley. "That's a good way to get shot in the back."

Baxley said that if people have the clear right to defend themselves without having to worry about legal consequences, criminals will think twice.

Opponents feared the bill would make Florida resemble the wild West, but defenders say it is no different from what most other states allow in laws governing self-defense.

The bill says a person has "the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another."


It will be interesting to see how this law changes defense in court. I like it and I don't like it at the same time. With a lack of witnesses, someone could now come up and punch you, you punch back, they shoot you and claim self defense and get off 100%. Then on the other hand, if you carry, you can defend yourself anywhere with less fear of being lccked up for 25 years.
4KRG is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 05:58 PM
  #2  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Valley of the Sun
Posts: 3,514
Note to self: DO NOT begin career as a neighborhood bully in Florida...
gilbertr76 is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:00 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,928
This about the only redeeming quality of Jeb and his state.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:03 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,200
I think you should have to sing show tunes while being threatened. That hasn't made it out of the Senate yet, but I'll keep fighting.
kvrdave is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:05 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,928
kvrdave 2008!
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:23 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Exit 151
Posts: 9,048
I'd love to see something like this in my state but it will never happen in liberal NJ.
No carry permits for us, and if I ever did have to use deadly force even in my own home I would be subject to a civil suit that would ruin my life.

NJ: where only law enforcement and criminals are allowed to carry firearms.
The rest of us are granted automatic victim status.
Phil L. is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:24 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Kittydreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,611
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
kvrdave 2008!
But only if Bando runs with him.
Kittydreamer is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:35 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
CaptainMarvel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,169
Originally Posted by 4KRG
It will be interesting to see how this law changes defense in court. I like it and I don't like it at the same time. With a lack of witnesses, someone could now come up and punch you, you punch back, they shoot you and claim self defense and get off 100%. Then on the other hand, if you carry, you can defend yourself anywhere with less fear of being lccked up for 25 years.
I don't think the law would work like that. Even in states already without a retreat requirement, lethal force is only allowed if you're faced with death or serious bodily injury. A punch wouldn't work.

A knife attack would, as that would definitely classify as lethal force. Under current law, if you were attacked on the street with a knife, you would be under a duty to retreat if at all possible before you would be allowed to use deadly force. The problem is that determining whether it was possible to retreat isn't always clear, and your judgment can pretty easily be second guessed by the police/prosecutors.

Now, a knife attack would allow you to defend yourself with appropriate force (in this case, lethal). Some states never did have a duty to retreat in the first place, so this isn't exactly a new concept.

I read an early draft of this law, and they maintained the normal provisions about not allowing original aggressors to claim self-defense, so it's not like you can start a fight, wait till they punch back, and shoot them.
CaptainMarvel is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 06:37 PM
  #9  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live, Buffalo NY
Posts: 29,694
self defense is a god/creator/nature/big bang given right
mikehunt is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 07:15 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 16,173
Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel
, so it's not like you can start a fight, wait till they punch back, and shoot them.

Ah Cptn Marvel lives in a perfect world where people don't lie and distort the truth to get what they want.

Trust me, I am pro gun, conceal carry, and everything else. I think this law may be good, but am just a little unsure of all the angles that can be played, that's all. I have seen people get played in the legal system for less.
4KRG is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 07:23 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,928
I bet this is Jeb's attempt to get hundreds, possibly thousands of more vegetable-state patients in hospitals. Kudos!
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 09:35 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: the 26th parallel
Posts: 561
So three weeks ago:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417501
Sernov is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 09:39 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Words
Posts: 28,207
I hope they pass it. If someone tries to break into my house, I'd have no problem shooting them.

Anyone know a good place to buy a Sig Saur .45? (I can't afford it right now...but it is on my to-do list)

-pedagogue
NotThatGuy is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 09:49 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The land of chocolate
Posts: 6,617
Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel
I read an early draft of this law, and they maintained the normal provisions about not allowing original aggressors to claim self-defense, so it's not like you can start a fight, wait till they punch back, and shoot them.
Exactly. But the problem is, that if I start a fight with you, wait until you hit back, it's in my best interest to shoot you.

Why? Because I can claim that you started it and I was defending myself. By my killing you, I don't have to worry about what you're going to say.
naughty jonny is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 10:41 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Exit 151
Posts: 9,048
Originally Posted by pedagogue
Anyone know a good place to buy a Sig Saur .45? (I can't afford it right now...but it is on my to-do list)

-pedagogue
Check your local gunshop.
I have a Sig 229 in .40, the good thing about that is that you can swap out the barrel to shoot .357 Sig
Phil L. is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 10:45 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,391
I hope other states follow suit.
natevines is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 11:02 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Words
Posts: 28,207
Originally Posted by Phil L.
Check your local gunshop.
I have a Sig 229 in .40, the good thing about that is that you can swap out the barrel to shoot .357 Sig
Nifty.

I am probably a couple years off (because of money, time to take a course, practice, etc), but I will definately keep that in mind.

I don't want to derail this conversation, and I also understand Geoff's preference for avoiding gun talk...so back on topic we go!!

Are there any states that have similar laws to what is being proposed?

-pedagogue
NotThatGuy is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 11:33 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Aostin, TX, USA
Posts: 19,876
RE: Florida to allow use of force even outside home

Isn't there a Star Wars Subforum yet?
Y2K Falcon is offline  
Old 04-26-05, 11:56 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Words
Posts: 28,207
Originally Posted by Y2K Falcon
Isn't there a Star Wars Subforum yet?
Maybe
NotThatGuy is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 12:13 AM
  #20  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live, Buffalo NY
Posts: 29,694
depending on the crime NY does not require retreat in public, and does not require retreat when in your house
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a12.html
mikehunt is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 12:52 AM
  #21  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
What the Jedi do in their own homes is their business. But taking it to the streets becomes a public manner and we have to determine whether it's infringing on the rights of their fellow citizens.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 01:03 AM
  #22  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Manco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 1,140
Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
What the Jedi do in their own homes is their business. But taking it to the streets becomes a public manner and we have to determine whether it's infringing on the rights of their fellow citizens.
Thats easy don't miss.
Manco is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 01:46 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 122,472
My opinion hasn't changed since the thread we had on this a couple weeks: won't make a difference in crime, positive or negative. Smells like feel good legislation to me.
Red Dog is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 01:52 PM
  #24  
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 32,745
Originally Posted by Kittydreamer
But only if Bando runs with him.
I'd bring in the non-cable-watching pro-naked-dancing vote.
Bandoman is offline  
Old 04-27-05, 04:18 PM
  #25  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
CaptainMarvel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,169
Originally Posted by naughty jonny
Exactly. But the problem is, that if I start a fight with you, wait until you hit back, it's in my best interest to shoot you.

Why? Because I can claim that you started it and I was defending myself. By my killing you, I don't have to worry about what you're going to say.
Again, you can't shoot somebody for merely hitting you, typically.

Anyway, what you're claiming is a problem with self defense law in general... not this law in particular. There's always been a chance that the aggressor will try to pass himself of as a defender. This particular law applies out in public places. In most places (and Florida I believe) this "no retreat" rule has been in effect for years. I would think the dangers of "self defense fabrication" would be greater in a private dwelling than in public anyway, since there's at least a greater likelihood of witnesses in public.
CaptainMarvel is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.