DVD Talk Forum

DVD Talk Forum (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/)
-   Other Talk (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk-9/)
-   -   Need help with bath fan / heater / light wiring please. (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/412454-need-help-bath-fan-heater-light-wiring-please.html)

tbird2340 03-03-05 05:29 PM

Need help with bath fan / heater / light wiring please.
 
I just purchased a Broan 659 heater / fan / light combo. We currently have a fan / light combo. I'm looking at the wiring and got a question.. Here is how they say to wire it:

http://users.zoominternet.net/~tscot...s/broan659.gif

Currently there is just one wire running from the switch (box) to the attic and into the light / fan. However, about a year ago I installed a light into the shower and ran another wire down the same spot to the same switch (so the switch turns on both the shower light and the fan/light. My question is.. From the looks of that diagram I have to run ANOTHER wire down to the switch. If I remember correctly it was a VERY tight fit getting the shower light wire down to it.

I will be replacing the single pole switch with a three function control switch.

1. Do I have to run another wire or is it possible to wire it another way.

2. If I do, would it be smart to cut out the original box and put it a remodeling box (to get more room)?

3. How would I wire it so that my shower light comes on with the light portion of the new heater/fan/light?

4. I may get yelled at for this but I'll just let it be known.. This unit says it needs to run on a dedicated 15 AMP circuit. Problem is I don't have any open circuits I can use (nor do I want to attempt to run a wire to the box if I got a new box). The maximum load this unit produces with the fan, light, and heater on at the same time is 12.0 amps.. That tells me I can run a couple of canned lights on this same circuit (in the bathroom) safely. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help!

ANDREMIKE 03-03-05 08:47 PM

So if you want a seperate switch for each of the items, as you say a 3 function switch, then you will need another wire. In other words you need one wire for the Light(in the fan) another wire for the fan and another wire for the heater. Therefore 3 wires + a neutral. I am assuming you only have 2 wires + the neutral. Now you could just wire the light(in the fan) with the shower light and put the fan on a seperate switch and the heater on a seperate switch.

Whatever you decide the fan should have 4 wires coming out of it. A wire for the light,fan, heater and the white for neutral. Somewhere it will say what wire is for what function.

A dedicated 15Amp circuit is a good idea, but if it is not you might be ok. How many other things are on this circuit?

Otto 03-03-05 11:38 PM

The heater probably takes most of that 12 amps.

Going by that diagram, yeah, you have three devices. One neutral wire hooks to all three, and each device has a power wire running to it.

Color in heater/fan/light box = device
Blue = light
Black = fan
Red = heater

So if you want three switches to control three things, you need at least three wires.

tbird2340 03-04-05 08:13 AM

By at least three wires you mean two wires coming from the attic to the switch and then the actual feed coming from the box as the third?

OldDude 03-04-05 08:32 AM

No, he means the colored wires inside the cables. You need three separate "hot" leads to control the three loads. In the manf. wiring diagram, they are the black wire in one cable and the red and black wires in the other cable (which needs to be four conductor). The white wire is reserved for neutral, and the green or bare wire is reserved for ground; neither may be used for any other purpose.

If you could find cable with enough wires in it, you wouldn't need two cables going to the light/fan/heater, but that is not commonly available for household ac wiring. Buy a bigger box and do it is they show.

As mentioned, the heater takes most of the 12 A. If it is off, you won't have a problem with loads. When using it, you may have to turn off anything else on the same circuit or blow a breaker.

tbird2340 03-04-05 09:39 AM

In that diagram. Is one of the wires run 14/3 and the other 14/2? I'm just trying to figure out what those actually mean.. I'm guessing 14/3 means 14AWG wire with 3 wires and a ground in it? 2 hots and a neutral?

Ok.. I already have two wires going down the wall to that switch. I believe they are both 14/2 (if I am right about what the numbers of the wire mean).

Currently inside the box it is a VERY tight fit. Would it be smart to just cut that box out with a sawzaw, install a new reconstruction box, remove the 14/2 wire that goes to the shower light, run a new 14/3 wire in it's place from the heater/light/fan and then just run a wire in the attic directly from the shower light to the heater/light/fan?

Otto 03-04-05 09:41 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
By at least three wires you mean two wires coming from the attic to the switch and then the actual feed coming from the box as the third?

No, you need at least three wires going from the attic to the switch. One for each of the components: fan, light, heat.

OldDude 03-04-05 09:50 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
In that diagram. Is one of the wires run 14/3 and the other 14/2? I'm just trying to figure out what those actually mean.. I'm guessing 14/3 means 14AWG wire with 3 wires and a ground in it? 2 hots and a neutral?

Ok.. I already have two wires going down the wall to that switch. I believe they are both 14/2 (if I am right about what the numbers of the wire mean).

Currently inside the box it is a VERY tight fit. Would it be smart to just cut that box out with a sawzaw, install a new reconstruction box, remove the 14/2 wire that goes to the shower light, run a new 14/3 wire in it's place from the heater/light/fan and then just run a wire in the attic directly from the shower light to the heater/light/fan?

All of that is correct and you could parallel the shower light to the light in the fixture. White to white, and the light "hot" wire is blue. Connect the black wire in your "extension" cable in parallel and run to the light.

Three cables coming into a small box is pretty tight (it may not even be "to code," I'm not a "code" expert) and you would have one more wire coming in than you do now. I recommend the larger box. Use the proper size wire nuts for the number of wires you are connecting together at each point and it will work well.

tbird2340 03-04-05 09:58 AM

Is it physically going to be three cables coming into that box from the attic? The diagram only shows two coming from the attic?

Otto 03-04-05 10:34 AM

I think you're making things overly complicated. Think of a "wire" as a "long metal conducting thing". :)

In order for any circut to work, it needs two things:
a) power
b) ground or neutral

Power flows through the light, or fan motor, or heating element, and goes into the neutral line.

Since you have three things that you want to independantly control, you need three bits or wire going from the control point to the thing you want to control.

Here, look at this diagram:
http://img47.exs.cx/img47/5948/fixture5ke.png
That's what it's going to look like, more or less. Power and neutral might be reversed, I'm not sure which is the right way to go there.

Now, what cable bundles those wires are in is really irrelevant. A wire is a wire, end to end. As long as it can carry the rated power, it's fine.

OldDude 03-04-05 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Is it physically going to be three cables coming into that box from the attic? The diagram only shows two coming from the attic?

Just two from the attic, one feeding power from your circuit breaker box. If you could find 14/4, you'd only need one cable to the attic. In the ceiling box, you will have a third cable not shown running to your other light. The 14/2 is a one circuit cable for the heater. The 14/3 is a two circuit cable(with shared neutral) for the light and the fan.

In Otto's diagram, it is instructional but note that the white neutral wire has to run back with the other cabling. It keeps the loop small and minimizes the magnetic field created.

tbird2340 03-04-05 06:54 PM


Originally Posted by Otto
I think you're making things overly complicated. Think of a "wire" as a "long metal conducting thing". :)

I often do over complicate things like this.. I get nervous with electrical stuff.

Thanks for bearing with me though.

tbird2340 03-04-05 06:56 PM


Originally Posted by OldDude
Just two from the attic, one feeding power from your circuit breaker box. If you could find 14/4, you'd only need one cable to the attic. In the ceiling box, you will have a third cable not shown running to your other light. The 14/2 is a one circuit cable for the heater. The 14/3 is a two circuit cable(with shared neutral) for the light and the fan.

In Otto's diagram, it is instructional but note that the white neutral wire has to run back with the other cabling. It keeps the loop small and minimizes the magnetic field created.

So wait.. If I only need to power three things via the switch (fan/light/heater) I could run one 14/4 wire down the wall. Then I would have a 14/2 cable going from the shower light over to the light part of the heater/fan/light (in the attic).

Is that correct?

OldDude 03-04-05 07:01 PM

True, but I don't know if you can find 14/4. If you find it, you'd have three hot wires, black, red. and tbd, to driive the three items, a common white neutral for all three and a ground wire. It isn't common, but you might find it.

tbird2340 03-04-05 07:11 PM

So it most likely won't be at Lowe's or Home Depot is what your saying?

If not, I will have to get a 14/3 wire, remove one of the 14/2 wires that runs the shower light, run the 14/3 down there, and then hook up the shower light via the attic.

Right? Tomorrow I'll draw up a diagram to get approved by you guys before I actually go through with the install.

Thanks for the help!

tbird2340 03-05-05 11:36 AM

How's this? Do I got it?

http://users.zoominternet.net/~tscot...ingDiagram.jpg

OldDude 03-05-05 12:28 PM

Looks good. In the switch box, make sure you remember which black wire is the heater and which is the fan, when you connect to switches. Since they are in different cables it won't be too hard, but when all the wires are pushed in, they look like a rat's nest.

tbird2340 03-06-05 03:13 PM

Quick question.. I'm doing the install right now and so far everything is going smooth. I just have one question. I had to make the hole in the drywall longer because the new fan is bigger. The one that was in there was wider then this one so in one area the hole is about 1/4" bigger then the unit on each side. The cover will JUST cover the openings. What I want to know is if it would be OK to put insulation around the unit in the attic. Especially in those two areas where there is about 1/4" gap on each side.

Please let me know. Thanks

tbird2340 03-06-05 07:29 PM

Also, since I took out the metal switch housing and replaced it with a reconstruction box (blue plastic one) how would I ground it to the switch? I have it grounded at the fan/heater/light and I have the three ground wires going to the switch wire nutted together. Is that good enough?

OldDude 03-06-05 09:31 PM


Originally Posted by tbird2340
Also, since I took out the metal switch housing and replaced it with a reconstruction box (blue plastic one) how would I ground it to the switch? I have it grounded at the fan/heater/light and I have the three ground wires going to the switch wire nutted together. Is that good enough?

Probably. Check to see if there is a ground screw on the switch assembly. There is on outlets now (they used to be grounded by mounting screws), but I can't remember on switches. If there is, make a short bare pigtail from the grounding screw to the wire nut holding all the ground wires together. If there isn't, don't work about it.

On your other question, insulation should be ok.

tbird2340 03-07-05 01:39 PM

Thanks OldDude... The install went very smooth (other then some plaster breaking off where the switch was leaving me with a small hole that the switch cover doens't cover).

I ran the heater, fan, lights, and didn't blow a fuse. I'm very satisfied.

Along those lines.. Do you know of a product that can fill small holes from missing drywall? I don't feel like cutting out a 4" x 4" section just for the 3/4" hole.. I don't think mud will stick to it how it broke either..

Thanks

OldDude 03-07-05 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by tbird2340

Along those lines.. Do you know of a product that can fill small holes from missing drywall? I don't feel like cutting out a 4" x 4" section just for the 3/4" hole.. I don't think mud will stick to it how it broke either..

Thanks

The trick is to get something (sacrificial) behind the hole that provides a little support while the "mud" dries. I've used tape, cardboard with glue on it, and small piece of wood with string tied to it. On the last one, tie the string to something, fill half to 2/3 the depth of the hole with mud, let it dry, cut the string flush, fill the rest of the hole. With some backing, I've filled holes as large as 3-4" without a cutout. Plaster of Paris works very well even on large holes. For 3/4" regular spackle should be fine with a little back support. If you can get your fingers in behind it, glue the support in place, otherwise use string to hold it tight from the front of the hole.

tbird2340 03-07-05 02:31 PM

Sweet idea.. Thanks a lot OldDude!


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.