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Turin shroud 'older than thought'

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Turin shroud 'older than thought'

Old 01-27-05, 07:43 PM
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Turin shroud 'older than thought'

The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal. A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old. The author dismisses 1988 carbon dating tests which concluded that the linen sheet was a medieval fake. The shroud, which bears the faint image of a blood-covered man, is believed by some to be Christ's burial cloth. Raymond Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. This was responsible for an erroneous date being assigned to the original shroud cloth.

"The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic," said Mr Rogers, who is a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, US. The linen sheet was damaged in several fires since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a church blaze in 1532.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm
Old 01-27-05, 08:19 PM
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Whatever, it's a medieval fake. Do a search on medieval fakes and see the nonsense church officials tried to pass off as artifacts to get more money from parishioners (who "donated" a small amount to see them).
Old 01-27-05, 08:31 PM
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DB:

I just saw something concerning this on O'Reilly. He had a Jewish scientist fellow on the show talking about this very thing.

It looks more like an older fellow to me, and not someone around 33 years old or whatnot...(actually, I see the gentleman on the shroud as looking more like that man guarding the cups in that Indiana Jones/Holy Grail movie), but what do I know? I don't mind (or lose anything in the process) waiting to find out what further investigation through current & future technology can (and will) discover concerning this image thing and I for one personally find it very cool & quite interesting.

That Edit King of Edit Kings

Last edited by The Edit King; 01-27-05 at 08:45 PM.
Old 01-27-05, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls
Whatever, it's a medieval fake. Do a search on medieval fakes and see the nonsense church officials tried to pass off as artifacts to get more money from parishioners (who "donated" a small amount to see them).
Whatever? Shrugging it off won't make it go away. Do you carbon test or determine the clothes on there? It isn't a medieval fake.
This is the Shroud of Turin not some backwater artifact.
Old 01-27-05, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
Whatever? Shrugging it off won't make it go away. Do you carbon test or determine the clothes on there? It isn't a medieval fake.
This is the Shroud of Turin not some backwater artifact.
From the article:
Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. This was responsible for an erroneous date being assigned to the original shroud cloth.
Do you honestly think that out of the entire shroud they just managed to take a sample from an area that was patched during the Middle Ages? How could they NOT see that it was a patched area when they first took the sample?
Old 01-27-05, 09:01 PM
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Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.
Old 01-27-05, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.
Yes, I understand that. But do you honestly believe that the researchers who took the patch in 1988 didn't notice that it was from a patch?

Not to mention that dating the shroud between 1300-3000 years old doesn't really improve the chances that it is what people claim it is.

Last edited by sracer; 01-27-05 at 09:19 PM.
Old 01-27-05, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
Whatever?
Yes, whatever.

This is the Shroud of Turin not some backwater artifact.
So it's the <b>Shroud of Turin</b>. Who cares. You act like fame or popularity amongst people who are unable to determine the difference between hope and fact is some indicator of legitimacy.
Old 01-27-05, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Not to mention that dating the shroud between 1300-3000 years old doesn't really improve the chances that it is what people claim it is.
So revising its age such that it could possibly be what is claimed is not an improvement over an age that would preclude it being that?

Interesting..
Old 01-27-05, 10:19 PM
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Something comes up every year or two that purports to uphold the Shroud's authenticity. There are always "scientists" who support the "new proof." Perhaps it is just a coincidence that it is always scientists who want to believe in the Shroud. Yet every new theory or piece of evidence has been shot down. I think it's best to let this play out before getting all excited.

Strangely, I found this story was reported eight days ago in a press release by a pro-authenticity group:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050119/phw016_1.html

Also, a test that dates something to between 1300-3000 years ago doesn't seem very accurate.

Furthermore, as has often been pointed out, even a date to the correct time period proves nothing more. And there are many, many reasons to reject the Shroud's authenticity other than dating:

http://www.scifidimensions.com/Aug00/jnf_shroud.htm

http://www.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcour...shroudpage.htm

Last edited by movielib; 01-27-05 at 11:31 PM.
Old 01-27-05, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
"How conveeeeenient!"
Old 01-27-05, 10:45 PM
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so what if it is 2005-2050 years old which would be close to correct for our current date system. doesn't prove jesus was the son of god, and it's already generally accepted that there was a real guy named jesus
Old 01-27-05, 10:58 PM
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Two big problems with the shroud being "authentic" are that the image on it looks like a medieval European man, and not a man who lived in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. Jesus wouldn't have had long hair and looked like a hippy.

That particular "look" has been applied to Jesus because that's how he was depicted in early European art.

And another is that the proportions on the shroud aren't proper, which makes it look like someone with a limited grasp of human anatomy painted it on there or transferred it from a sculpture.
Old 01-27-05, 11:00 PM
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Carbon date a condom a few thousand years ago and discover Jesus and Mary M's DNA within the vicinity, and my ears will perk up a little.
Old 01-27-05, 11:02 PM
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I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure thought came first.

das
Old 01-28-05, 12:12 AM
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Relics have been a Catholic tradition ever since the church was created by the pagan emperor Constantine in the 4th century. People desparately want to feel some connection to God, so the church sells them something to fill that need. The most common being a piece of the 'True Cross', enough pieces of which have been sold over the years to make a cross 5 feet square and the length and width of a football field. The Turin shroud is no different. It's just another way for people to feel closer to God, and at the same time, fill the church's coffers.
Old 01-28-05, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by das Monkey
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure thought came first.
Old 01-28-05, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by das Monkey
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure thought came first.

das
Old 01-28-05, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by leepyswetr
So revising its age such that it could possibly be what is claimed is not an improvement over an age that would preclude it being that?

Interesting..
Not really. (and that's the key phrase in that sentence... "not really")

If the shroud is 1300 years old, then it isn't what people claim it to be. If the shroud is 3000 years old, then it isn't what people claim it to be.

We're dealing with a very particular timeframe here. Citing a timespan of 4300 years is extremely broad (considering the issue)

The research results in the 1980's was more narrow than this. If their findings were within a 300 yr span, then I'd be more impressed if these new findings also spanned approx. 300 years centered around 33 AD.

--------
And yet the question still remains, if it were true that the previous research in the 80's was taken from a sewn in patch, why didn't those researchers know it? And what is the probability that by chance they would test a miniscule area that just happened to be a patch?
If you believe that it is possible, then you have enough faith to believe that Jesus really was the Son of God... God incarnate, suffered and died for our sins, and was resurrected on the 3rd day. In which case, this shroud simply becomes "just a dirty rag". Ah, the irony.
Old 01-28-05, 07:45 AM
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5/5 for das.

What's "Thermochimica Acta"?
Old 01-28-05, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
5/5 for das.

What's "Thermochimica Acta"?
Sounds like a coffee from Starbucks.
Old 01-28-05, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
This is the Shroud of Turin not some backwater artifact.
Thanks for reminding us. I'm catching a flight to worship the cloth later today.
Old 01-28-05, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.
The fire I have heard much about was in 1532 (I've never heard of any fire earlier than that; looking around the web, I found a few sites which claimed a 1349 fire but the furthest back the shroud's history can even be traced is 1355 when it was initially exhibited at Lirey, France). That date is much later than the upper limit of the carbon-dating tests (1390). If the alleged patch was made to repair damage from that fire it should have been carbon-dated to a considerably later date.
Old 01-28-05, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Yes, I understand that. But do you honestly believe that the researchers who took the patch in 1988 didn't notice that it was from a patch?

Not to mention that dating the shroud between 1300-3000 years old doesn't really improve the chances that it is what people claim it is.
Dammit Jim I'm a scientist not a seamstress!
Old 01-28-05, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by das Monkey
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure thought came first.
Our first nominee for post of the year.

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