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Nude man at Wal-Mart-store tries to seize photog's camera

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Nude man at Wal-Mart-store tries to seize photog's camera

Old 01-06-05, 03:35 PM
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Nude man at Wal-Mart-store tries to seize photog's camera



A nude man is surrounded by men outside Wal-Mart at the Centre at Hagerstown on Tuesday. Store employees wrapped the man in a blanket. Police said he would not be charged. (Photo credit: Duane Roy / )



Wednesday January 5, 2005
Strip mall stripper
Nude man at Centre at Hagerstown taken to hospital for psychiatric care
by ANDREW SCHOTZ


[email protected]


HAGERSTOWN - A man strolled naked outside at the Centre at Hagerstown on Tuesday before police took him to Washington County Hospital for psychiatric care.


"He just got undressed" and walked, Officer Chris Robinson of the Hagerstown Police Department said.


The man, who was not identified, "was lucid at points," but didn't fully understand what had happened, Robinson said.


Robinson said the man, who might be homeless, would not be charged.


At around noon, Duane Roy, a computer network administrator for The Herald-Mail, was at the shopping center on his lunch break when he saw the naked man jogging, then walking.


The temperature was about 53 degrees then, according to weather observer Greg Keefer's Web site.


As shoppers gawked and made cell phone calls, Roy stopped and took pictures from his car as the man approached Wal-Mart. Roy said he's a freelance photographer and keeps a camera in his car.


Then, he drove past the man, parked his car, got out and took more pictures as the man passed Wal-Mart.


As the man turned around and went back past Wal-Mart, store employees wrapped him in a blanket.

Roy said a store official told him not to take pictures or publish them without getting permission. Then, a man in a suit who identified himself as a store security official ordered him to surrender his camera, Roy said.


Roy said he refused, so the man demanded the film in his camera, unaware that it was a digital camera.


Again, Roy refused. He locked the camera in his car.


"He said if I didn't turn the camera over to him, he would have me arrested" and ban him from the store, Roy said.


Attorney Mary R. Craig, who represents The Herald-Mail, said Roy "certainly was well within his rights" to take pictures.


The store can set limits, such as on taking pictures inside, but the expectation of privacy probably is less outside, she said.


She said Roy probably didn't violate anyone's privacy, especially the naked man's.


Alice Neff Lucan, an attorney who represents the Maryland-Delaware-D.C. Press Association, said Wal-Mart "emphatically" had no right to demand Roy's camera.


"He didn't violate any of Wal-Mart's rights and he didn't violate the streaker's rights," she said. "He just took a picture of what was in the public's view."


The Herald-Mail is a member of the press association.


Store manager Frank Archer couldn't be reached for comment Tuesday.


Co-manager Barry Brown said the security officer demanded Roy's film - not his camera - because Roy didn't have permission to take pictures on Wal-Mart's property.


Brown said he didn't see the confrontation, but heard about it.


Wal-Mart corporate spokeswoman Christi Gallagher in Bentonville, Ark., said she hadn't heard what happened.


In general, though, the company insists that all requests for pictures, inside or outside its stores, be made in advance, she said.


If a photographer doesn't get permission, a store manager would tell him or her to call the corporate office, Gallagher said.


"We don't confiscate cameras," she said.


Roy said police officers at the scene decided that store officials couldn't seize his camera, but they could ban him and have him arrested for trespassing if he returned.


He said no one at the store took his name, so he doesn't know how the ban will be enforced.


Wal-Mart and The Home Depot own their buildings, while the other stores at the center lease space from Washington Real Estate Investment Trust of Rockville, Md., according to Deborah Everhart, Hagerstown's economic development coordinator.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Wal-Mart's photo policy

Wal-Mart's policy that all photos taken on its property must be approved in advance includes breaking news coverage, company spokeswoman Christi Gallagher said.


The company requires the media - or anyone else - to get approval before taking pictures in Wal-Mart stores or on Wal-Mart property, she said.


Asked if journalists photographing unexpected news, such as a fire, need the same permission, Gallagher said they do.


After hours, a journalist should call the company's 24-hour corporate hotline before taking pictures, she said.


- Andrew Schotz




Hey Wal-Mart! Your store is burning down! Can I have permission to take photos?
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Old 01-06-05, 03:39 PM
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Yeah, when I see a naked dude my first impulse is to start snapping away.
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Old 01-06-05, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
Yeah, when I see a naked dude my first impulse is to start snapping away.
With a wet towel?
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Old 01-06-05, 03:51 PM
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That's just not right. Shame on Groucho.




BTW, did you recover from meeting me in person Mr. Phil L?

I somehow took a wrong a turn and found a new way back to Fords.
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Old 01-06-05, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford T Pusser
That's just not right. Shame on Groucho.




BTW, did you recover from meeting me in person Mr. Phil L?

I somehow took a wrong a turn and found a new way back to Fords.
We were wondering where you went. I thought you wuz gonna follow us back up Rt. 27 then all of a sudden you were gone.
Couldn't get away from us fast enough huh?


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Old 01-06-05, 03:57 PM
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Mrs. Pusser sent a signal that caused her vehicle to take off and get me back ASAP.


Did Mrs. L work up a nice collage of pix from the bar? She was SnapHappy!
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Old 01-06-05, 04:03 PM
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That's the town my girlfriend is from! We crack on it all the time. It is truly a haven for oddity and bizarre behavior.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:05 PM
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I used to be a news photographer, and that policy is completely asinine.

I can stand on a public sidewalk and shoot video of anything I want to. I've had a number of people (including cops) tell me I couldn't, but what they really meant was that they didn't WANT me to do it. I was well within my rights.

As long as you aren't trespassing on private property they can't stop you.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford T Pusser
Wal-Mart's photo policy

Wal-Mart's policy that all photos taken on its property must be approved in advance includes breaking news coverage, company spokeswoman Christi Gallagher said.

The company requires the media - or anyone else - to get approval before taking pictures in Wal-Mart stores or on Wal-Mart property, she said.

Asked if journalists photographing unexpected news, such as a fire, need the same permission, Gallagher said they do. [/b]
No, in point of fact, they don't. It's generally legal to take pictures in any public place. Who owns the land you're standing on or what you're taking pictures of is irrelevant.

Inside the store, they'd have a chance at saying it's not public and they can reasonably argue that to a judge. Outside the store, even standing in the parking lot, they have no chance of winning a suit and any lawyer worth his salt wouldn't let them even bring one, since they'd be guaranteed to lose.

However, the intended use of the picture matters. If you publish it or use it for commercial uses, then you need releases from the people pictured in it. Publishing it for editorial use or covering events like news is protected and you can use it without a release in that case. You still need to be careful about libel laws though, especially when you're talking about things and implying this applies to those people pictured. The New York Times has run afoul of this a couple of times by using random street shots of people as pictures for stories that are based on race.

In short, despite what Mrs. Gallagher says, they can never stop you from taking pictures outside the store. They can sometimes get you for how you use it though, if you publish it.

So somebody can demand your camera all they want, you don't have to give it to them, however. Tell them to fuck off and do as you please. If they try to physically stop you, you've got a nice lawsuit against them.

Last edited by Otto; 01-06-05 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:13 PM
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A Wal-Mart emplyee would regret attempting to take my camera away from me.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Draven
I used to be a news photographer, and that policy is completely asinine.

I can stand on a public sidewalk and shoot video of anything I want to. I've had a number of people (including cops) tell me I couldn't, but what they really meant was that they didn't WANT me to do it. I was well within my rights.

As long as you aren't trespassing on private property they can't stop you.

Did you work at a small paper in MN?

This happens all the time where security/police think they can just bully people into doing what they want. I was reading of another case yesterday where the cops stopped someone, saying they were blocking rescue workers even though they were standing in the same area as the general public.



One time I saw a huge neon sign for a store called "COUSIN FRED'S". The only letters that were lit were SIN so I stopped and took a photo. The manager came outside and asked for my film. I told him no and he ran inside and turned the sign off.



Mr.Salty-if you're reading this-do you remember the store?
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Old 01-06-05, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil L.
A Wal-Mart emplyee would regret attempting to take my camera away from me.
Always make sure he starts it. Just start taking pictures of them, that really annoys these types and makes it a really easy case to win if he actually tries anything. "I was just taking pictures, your honor, when he attacked me!"

But after he lays hands on you, then feel free to pound 5 kinds of hell out of him.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:22 PM
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I've had "authority" figures demand I hand over cameras and equipment in the past. And I chuckle to myself when they do.

I usually tell them to back off or they better remember their basic BPSST training and be prepared to not only lose their pathetic job, but will get a 4lb lens slapped across their head, and will get slapped again with a civil suit from me personally if they even try to touch me or my equipment.

I've never had problems with cops, or should I say, real police folk in law enforcement. Actually, I take that back. During last years anniversary protests in March, a cop yelled at me to get off the street and on the curb because they needed make a path. I said, "You are aware this entire street has people walking around in it, and I'm not the only guy walking in it, correct?" He gave me a weird look and then peddled on ahead with his bike.

Overall, the police are really cool. It's the security morons that decide to enforce laws that don't exist and get me irritated.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 01-06-05 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei

I usually tell them to back off or they better remember their basic BPSST training and be prepared to not only lose their pathetic job, but will get a 4lb lens slapped across their head,
No no no don't wreck a good lens. Better to have a nice monopod handy.
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Old 01-06-05, 04:33 PM
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Smackdown with a Bogen!
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Old 01-06-05, 04:43 PM
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At around noon, Duane Roy, a computer network administrator for The Herald-Mail, was at the shopping center on his lunch break when he saw the naked man jogging, then walking.
.
.
.
Roy said police officers at the scene decided that store officials couldn't seize his camera, but they could ban him and have him arrested for trespassing if he returned.

He said no one at the store took his name, so he doesn't know how the ban will be enforced.
Just when it looked like the WalMart folks would be the feature idiots of this story...
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Old 01-06-05, 06:28 PM
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I recomend that if you take photographs to print this out and keep it with you.

http://braynepower.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

The Photographer's Right

About this Guide -
Confrontations that impair the constitutional
right to make images are
becoming more common. To fight the
abuse of your right to free expression,
you need to know your rights to take
photographs and the remedies available
if your rights are infringed.

The General Rule -
The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.
Absent a specific legal prohibition
such as a statute or ordinance, you are
legally entitled to take photographs.
Examples of places that are traditionally
considered public are streets,
sidewalks, and public parks.
Property owners may legally prohibit
photography on their premises
but have no right to prohibit others
from photographing their property
from other locations. Whether you
need permission from property own-
ers to take photographs while on their
premises depends on the circumstances.
In most places, you may reasonably
assume that taking photographs
is allowed and that you do not
need explicit permission. However,
this is a judgment call and you should
request permission when the circumstances
suggest that the owner is likely
to object. In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.

Some Exceptions to the Rule -
There are some exceptions to the
general rule. A significant one is that
commanders of military installations
can prohibit photographs of specific
areas when they deem it necessary to
protect national security. The U.S.
Department of Energy can also prohibit
photography of designated
nuclear facilities although the publicly
visible areas of nuclear facilities are
usually not designated as such.
Members of the public have a very
limited scope of privacy rights when
they are in public places. Basically,
anyone can be photographed without
their consent except when they have
secluded themselves in places where
they have a reasonable expectation of
privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms,
medical facilities, and inside
their homes.

Permissible Subjects -
Despite misconceptions to the contrary,
the following subjects can
almost always be photographed lawfully
from public places:
accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers

Who Is Likely to Violate Your Rights -
Most confrontations are started by
security guards and employees of
organizations who fear photography.
The most common reason given is
security but often such persons have
no articulated reason. Security is
rarely a legitimate reason for restricting
photography. Taking a photograph
is not a terrorist act nor can a
business legitimately assert that taking
a photograph of a subject in public
view infringes on its trade secrets.
On occasion, law enforcement officers
may object to photography but
most understand that people have the
right to take photographs and do not
interfere with photographers. They do
have the right to keep you away from
areas where you may impede their
activities or endanger safety. However,
they do not have the legal right
to prohibit you from taking photographs
from other locations.

They Have Limited Rights to Bother, Question, or Detain
You -
Although anyone has the right to
approach a person in a public place
and ask questions, persistent and
unwanted conduct done without a
legitimate purpose is a crime in many
states if it causes serious annoyance.
You are under no obligation to answer
such questions in any state and do not
have to disclose your identity or the
purpose of your photography.
If the conduct goes beyond mere
questioning, all states have laws that
make coercion and harassment criminal
offenses. The specific elements
vary among the states but in general it
is unlawful for anyone to instill a fear
that they may injure you, damage or
take your property, or falsely accuse
you of a crime just because you are
taking photographs.

Private parties have very limited -
rights to detain you against your will
and may be subject to criminal and
civil charges should they attempt to
do so. Although the laws in most
states authorize citizen's arrests, such
authority is very narrow. In general,
citizen's arrests can be made only for
felonies or crimes committed in the
person's presence. Failure to abide by
these requirements usually means
that the person is liable for a tort such
as false imprisonment.

They Have No Right to Confiscate Your Film -
Sometimes agents acting for entities
such as owners of industrial plants
and shopping malls may ask you to
hand over your film. Absent a court
order, private parties have no right to
confiscate your film. Taking your film
directly or indirectly by threatening to
use force or call a law enforcement
agency can constitute criminal offenses
such as theft and coercion. It can
likewise constitute a civil tort such as
conversion. Law enforcement officers
may have the authority to seize film
when making an arrest but otherwise
must obtain a court order.
Your Legal Remedies If Harassed
If someone has threatened, intimidated,
or detained you because you were
taking photographs, they may be
liable for crimes such as kidnapping,
coercion, and theft. In such cases, you
should report them to the police.
You may also have civil remedies
against such persons and their
employers. The torts for which you
may be entitled to compensation
include assault, conversion, false
imprisonment, and violation of your
constitutional rights.

Other Remedies If Harassed -
If you are disinclined to take legal
action, there are still things you can do
that contribute to protecting the right
to take photographs.
(1) Call the local newspaper and see if
they are interested in running a story.
Many newspapers feel that civil liberties
are worthy of serious coverage.
(2) Write to or call the supervisor of
the person involved, or the legal or
public relations department of the
entity, and complain about the event.
(3) Make the event publicly known on
an Internet forum that deals with photography
or civil rights issues.

How to Handle Confrontations -
Most confrontations can be defused
by being courteous and respectful. If
the party becomes pushy, combative,
or unreasonably hostile, consider calling
the police. Above all, use good
judgment and don't allow an event to
escalate into violence.
In the event you are threatened with
detention or asked to surrender your
film, asking the following questions
can help ensure that you will have the
evidence to enforce your legal rights:
1. What is the person's name?
2. Who is their employer?
3. Are you free to leave? If not, how do
they intend to stop you if you decide
to leave? What legal basis do they
assert for the detention?
4. Likewise, if they demand your film,
what legal basis do they assert for the
confiscation?

Disclaimer -
This is a general education guide
about the right to take photographs
and is necessarily limited in scope. For
example, it does not cover important
issues such as publication and copyright.
For more information about the
laws that affect photography, I refer
you to my book, Legal Handbook for
Photographers (Amherst Media, 2002).
This guide is not intended to be legal
advice nor does it create an attorney
client relationship. Readers should
seek the advice of a competent attorney
when they need legal advice
regarding a specific situation.
published by:
Bert P. Krages II
Attorney at Law
6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200
Portland, Oregon 97223
www.krages.com
2003 Bert P. Krages II
Your Rights and
Remedies When
Stopped or
Confronted
for Photography
February 2003
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Old 01-06-05, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford T Pusser
One time I saw a huge neon sign for a store called "COUSIN FRED'S". The only letters that were lit were SIN so I stopped and took a photo. The manager came outside and asked for my film. I told him no and he ran inside and turned the sign off.



Mr.Salty-if you're reading this-do you remember the store?
I remember Fred's Dance Barn, but not Cousin Fred's. Where was it, and what kind of store was it?
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Old 01-06-05, 06:38 PM
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Why would the reporter want to take pictures for the news story? Does he really need pictures to tell the story??

Most people think if he was in the store he could not take the pictures but outside he can? Is this the case even if he is on walmart property, or just if he is on a public street? He could take a picture of the same thing from either location. Does it change anyones rights?
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Old 01-06-05, 07:26 PM
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Tandem,

A parking lot is one of those areas where a judge would most likely side with the photographer (as long as the photographer is not being overly aggressive, hostile, etc.). Inside a building, is a different story altogether. But an open parking lot, which is not fenced or barracaded, nor has any indication of keeping a privateness to itself, and is obviously open to public traffic, creates a situation where photographs can be taken without much legal standing to prevent those photographs from being taken.

Wal-Mart should conspicuously post signs, prohibiting photography or video from being taken. Then, they would have more legal standing. But simply having a half-wit security guard quoting the rules of the store who no one is privy to unless they happen to "break the law of Wal-Mart", does not have much legal bite.

Another scenario is if the photographer shot his images from his car, in the parking lot.

Also, you can be on a public street, and have your camera taken away. I don't want to write a thesis on this, because I could, but you basically just have to feel out the situation, and be cool with local authorities.

In my experience, a photo is legal if you don't get caught taking it.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 01-06-05 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 01-06-05, 07:37 PM
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As shoppers gawked and made cell phone calls, Roy stopped and took pictures from his car as the man approached Wal-Mart. Roy said he's a freelance photographer and keeps a camera in his car.

Sure Roy, sure.
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Old 01-06-05, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei


Smackdown with a Gitzo!

my version

Sadly I have the lightweight carbon fiber version. Not as good in the weapon department.
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Old 01-06-05, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford T Pusser
Roy said police officers at the scene decided that store officials couldn't seize his camera, but they could ban him and have him arrested for trespassing if he returned.
Hmmm... that would make me rethink things, for sure. If I couldn't get back into that store, I don't know what I would do with myself. You know, it's not like there aren't wal-marts everywhere. Or even better, something that actually has people who enjoy their jobs a bit.
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Old 01-06-05, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Salty
I remember Fred's Dance Barn, but not Cousin Fred's. Where was it, and what kind of store was it?
I think the store had a variety of goods-like a Woolworth-type or farm store.

I want to think it was north of Marion and south of W. Frankfort or in that town. Probably Rt. 37. It was on the east side of the road and the store was set back a little bit from the road with a decent size parking lot.

The red neon sign was in the parking lot, not on the store.

I could be wrong about the name-that's what I was thinking it was. I know it had the word SIN in it. There may have been a large arrow on the sign as well.

Somewhere I still have the Kodachrome slides of the sign.
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Old 01-06-05, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford T Pusser
my version

Sadly I have the lightweight carbon fiber version. Not as good in the weapon department.
Are you saying that carbon fibre is not as strong? I want my money back
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