Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk
Reload this Page >

British Royal Navy to allow devil worship

Other Talk "Otterville" plus Religion/Politics

British Royal Navy to allow devil worship

Old 10-24-04, 07:26 PM
  #1  
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 25,060
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
British Royal Navy to allow devil worship

Stretching freedom of religion to the limits. Discuss.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...hip/index.html
Royal Navy to allow devil worship
Sunday, October 24, 2004 Posted: 9:50 AM EDT (1350 GMT)

LONDON, England (CNN) -- A devil-worshipping sailor in the Royal Navy has become the first registered Satanist in the British Armed Forces.

Chris Cranmer, 24, a technician serving on the Type 22 frigate Cumberland, has been officially recognized as a Satanist by the ship's captain.

That allows him to perform satanic rituals aboard and permits him to have a non-Christian Church of Satan funeral should he be killed in action.

A spokesman for Britain's Ministry of Defence told CNN Sunday that it had a duty to allow members of the forces to practice their religion.

He added that the MoD was an "equal opportunities employer" which did not stop anyone having their own religious values.

"The Royal Navy allows this kind of approach because it is clearly in line with current regulations. We are not aware of any other individuals who want to be registered as Satanists."

Cranmer, 24, who comes from Edinburgh, Scotland, is now lobbying the Ministry of Defence to make Satanism a registered religion in the Armed Forces, says Britain's Sunday Telegraph.

He says he wants Satanists to be able to join the military without "fear of marginalisation and the necessity to put up with Christian dogma."

The defense ministry told CNN that Cranmer went to his commanding officer with a request to practice his beliefs on board his ship and, after consultation with the ship's chaplain, this was granted.

The decision was at the discretion of the captain, the MoD, said, and was on the basis that it did not impinge on the operational effectiveness, safety or security of the ship, or the well-being of colleagues.

Tour of duty
Cranmer, who has been aboard the Cumberland's tour of duty in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf since April, said that being registered as a Satanist gave him "the freedom of religion I wanted despite its controversial nature".

Cranmer, who is single, has been in the Royal Navy for four years and was promoted leading hand -- the naval equivalent of corporal -- in July last year.

He told the newspaper that he realized he was a Satanist nine years ago when he "stumbled across" The Satanic Bible by American 'Black Pope' Anton Szandor LaVey. "I then read more and came to realize I'd always been a Satanist, just simply never knew."

He added that he had been "warmly congratulated" by his friends and family for becoming the Armed Forces' first Satanist but did not feel that the war in Iraq was "the Devil's work."

"From a military perspective, I believe in vengeance. I don't consider Satan to be an intelligently external force in my life; instead I consider it an empowering internal force.

"If I were asked if I were evil, I would say yes -- by virtue of the common definition. However, if you asked my family and friends you would hear a resounding 'no'. I get a massive amount from my career."

Satanic rules
The Church of Satan was established in San Francisco in 1966 and LaVey was its high priest until his death in 1997.

Members of the church, which rejects Christian ideas of God and the Devil, follow 11 "Satanic Rules of the Earth."

The belief system has been condemned as a cult by some religious groups and at least one opposition politician expressed dismay after Cranmer won permission to practice Satanism aboard a Royal Navy ship.

"I am utterly shocked by this," Conservative parliamentarian Anne Widdecombe told Reuters.

"Satanism is wrong. Obviously the private beliefs of individuals anywhere including the armed forces are their own affair but I hope it doesn't spread," she said.
Old 10-24-04, 07:52 PM
  #2  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anton LaVey's Satanism has always seemed mislabeled to me. Call it whatever you want, but is is just unabashed hedonism. There is no diety involved.
Old 10-24-04, 07:58 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 11,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by kvrdave
There is no diety involved.
You mean I can eat all the foods I love and still have rock-hard abs? Sign me up, Satan!
Old 10-24-04, 08:23 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
aintnosin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rum, Satanism and the lash...
Old 10-24-04, 08:30 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Gentlemen... meet Chris Cranmer. He's going to be bunking with you tonight. By the way, he worships SATAN."

"Sir?"

"Yes, corporal?"

"Can you leave the light on?"
Old 10-24-04, 08:31 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Separation of the 7th circle of hell and state?
Old 10-24-04, 08:33 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Ranger
Separation of the 7th circle of hell and state?
!
Old 10-24-04, 08:35 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You don't know the power of the Dark Side!
Old 10-24-04, 08:43 PM
  #9  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by dork
You mean I can eat all the foods I love and still have rock-hard abs? Sign me up, Satan!
Oops.

I always suspected that LeVey called it Satanism just to piss people off.
Old 10-24-04, 08:46 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
aintnosin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by The Church Lady
I wonder what made them do that. Could it be...

...Satan?
Old 10-24-04, 09:33 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC
Posts: 17,018
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: British Royal Navy to allow devil worship

Originally posted by OldDude
[B]LONDON, England (CNN) -- A devil-worshipping sailor in the Royal Navy has become the first registered Satanist in the British Armed Forces.

Members of the church, which rejects Christian ideas of God and the Devil, follow 11 "Satanic Rules of the Earth."
Um?
Old 10-24-04, 10:46 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is lame.
Old 10-24-04, 11:10 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 3,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Old 10-25-04, 08:48 AM
  #14  
Video Game Talk Reviewer
 
Canis Firebrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Formerly known as "Vryce"/Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 13,857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: British Royal Navy to allow devil worship

Originally posted by Breakfast with Girls


Originally posted by OldDude
LONDON, England (CNN) -- A devil-worshipping sailor in the Royal Navy has become the first registered Satanist in the British Armed Forces.

Members of the church, which rejects Christian ideas of God and the Devil, follow 11 "Satanic Rules of the Earth."
Um?
From a site I visit. It discusses many different worshiping paths. Since a lot of people instantly make judgements about Satanism, the site created this "Faq" to answer questions, etc.

It is not my path, but I thought I'd post it here since some of the same misconceptions are poping up.


[FONT=Palatino Linotype][CENTER]The Official MysticWicks Satanism FAQ:
__________________________________________________________________________

Section One: The FAQ


Do you guys believe in Satan?
No, Satan is just an archetype in our view. We are athiests and do not believe such an entity exists.

If you don't believe in Satan, why do you call ourselves "Satanists?"
Through readings of philosophy and the bible we believe that Satan was in fact the image of the "human animal." We find that our actions and views on the world are in line with the mythical figure of Satan.

Please Read The Nine Satanic Satanic Statements in Section Two.

The Christians have the cross, the pagans have the pentacle, what is your symbol?
The inverted pentacle or the "baphomet"

"In the middle ages the Baphomet was believed to be an idol, represented by a human skull, a stuffed humans head or a metal or wooden human head with curly black hair. The idol was said to be worshipped by the Order of Knights Templar as the source of fertility and wealth. In 1307 King Phillip IV of France accused the Order of the Knights Templar of heresy, homosexuality and among other things, worshipping this idol and anointing it with the fat of murdered children. However, only 12 of the 231 knights interrogated by the church admitted worshipping or having knowledge of the Baphomet. Novices said they had been instructed to worship the idol as their god and savior, and their descriptions of it varied: it had up to three heards and up to four feet; it was made of either wood or metal, or was a painting, sometimes it was a gift."

Exert from this website.

Why do you say "Hail Satan"?"
Hail Satan is an equivalent to "Hail Me."

Do you believe in God?
We are athiests....

Do you believe in the Afterlife?
We are athiests....

Who started Satanism and is he alive today?
Anton LaVey (1930-1997) began Satanism and passed away in 1997 of heart ailments on the 29th. He began the Church of Satan in May 1966 after much inspiration from his various careers and readings of philosophy. The Church of Satan is now headed by his former secretary turned wife Blanche Barton (mother of Xerxes LaVey) with the assistance of his eldest daughter Karla LaVey. One of his daughters, Zeena LaVey is currently in a legal dispute over ownership. (My personal input: Zeena LaVey has no right as Anton left it to Blanche Barton in his will.....)

Anton wrote quite a few books including The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Witch and The Satanic Rituals, The Devil's Notebook, and Satan Speaks. He also recorded a few rather eerie albums such as Satan Takes a Holiday.

Fun Fact: He played the devil in the classic film Rosemary's Baby.


What influences did LaVey use to create Satanism?
Aleister Crowley, John Dee & Kelly, Chaos Magic, Kabballah, The Knights Templar, Quantum Physics and Nietzsche.

Are Satanists selfish and cruel?
There are people out there who call themselves "Satanists" who actually are not part of the Alien Elite (see below) who may be that way. That being said I will delve into the "ego" of the Satanist.

We love ourselves, take pride in our selves, and offer love to those who we see as deserving rather than love wasted on ingrates. We tend to avoid people who irritate us or attempt to harm ourselves or those near to us. We reject people who generally commit The Nine Satanic Sins (see Section Two)...or that we find otherwise distasteful on a personal level.

We do not believe in the harm of animals, children, or others. Read The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth in Section Two for the exact rules on the subject.

Who are/What is the "Alien Elite?"
We believe that Satanists are born, not made. Those who are meant to be Satanists will be Satanists regardless of if they have a knowledge of who LaVey is or not. There are people out there who are not Satanists but we consider to operate on the same level as us as they have traits we favour, such as intelligence. We tend to see quite a few people as sheep as they believe whatever they are told and never question or work in their interest.


I heard that Satanists value animals more highly than humans? is this true?
We believe that human beings are animals like any other being on this Earth. We are clever animals but we believe some people are better than non-human animals, and many are less than those who walk on all fours. We are all animals requiring food, sex, water, and an enironment for survivial.

Eg: I would save the life of a cat over that of a pedophile.

Do Satanists mistreat children?
No, we regard them as the world's natural magicians. They are the only innocence in an otherwise corrupt world and must be protected and treated exceptionally well.

Satanists dislike Pagans.
This depends on the Satanist; however, I will have to say this. If it doesn't effect us we don't really care. We may not believe what many pagans do but we respect that you have found your own path rather than accepting whatever religions have been forced upon you. A lot of Satanists love history so they tend to find common ground with reconstructionists and other historically themed pagan groupings.

Do Satanists practice magic?
In a way, yes. We have Lesser and Greater magic.

What is Lesser and Greater Magic?
I will use and exerpt from Anton himself to describe it.

"Ritual magic consists of the performance of a formal ceremony, taking place, at least in part, within the confines of an area set aside for such purposes and at a specific time... purely an emotional, rather than intellectual, act. Any and all intellectual activity must take place before the ceremony, not during it. This type of magic is sometimes known as "GREATER MAGIC". "
Anton LaVey, The Satanic Bible, Book of Belial: 1


"Non-ritual or manipulative magic, sometimes called "LESSER MAGIC", consists of the wile and guile obtained through various devices and contrived situations, which when utilized, can create 'change, in accordance with one's will'. "
Anton LaVey, The Satanic Bible, Book of Belial: 1


What do Satanists think of abortion? same sex marriages and other hot-topic issues?
Each Satanist is different, but the main belief is whatever people chose to do is their business if it does not effect us. We believe that living your life the best you can and living it for you, not to please others.

There is this guy next door who says he is a Satanist and walks around in dark clothing trying to capture cats for rituals, do you know him?
There are TONS of posers and cults that form from individuals who want to exploit the faith and/or have their own "image" to make their parents get concerned. Be wary of such people.

Sections Two: Statements, Rules, and Core Beliefs.

The Nine Satanic Statements

I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
IX Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!

From the Satanic Bible

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.
III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.
VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
IX Do not harm little children.
X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.
XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Anton Szandor LaVey, 1967 c.e.


The Nine Satanic Sins

Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

Pretentiousness -- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

Solipsism -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Self-deceit -- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

Herd Conformity -- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

Lack of Perspective -- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

Counterproductive Pride -- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.

Lack of Aesthetics -- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

Anton Szandor LaVey, 1987 c.e.
Old 10-25-04, 09:35 AM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 32,126
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes on 13 Posts
I don't see any problem with this.

If his beliefs aren't hurting anyone else, he should be as free to practice as every other religion on board.
Old 10-25-04, 11:23 AM
  #16  
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 25,060
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Silliest group of atheists I've heard of. Why work everybody up by claiming to worship Satan. They get upset enough when they hear you don't believe in any magical, mystical beings. Why introduce a pretend pretend being?
Old 10-25-04, 11:25 AM
  #17  
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 11,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Agreed.
Old 10-25-04, 11:35 AM
  #18  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Kittydreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Thor Simpson
"Gentlemen... meet Chris Cranmer. He's going to be bunking with you tonight. By the way, he worships SATAN."

"Sir?"

"Yes, corporal?"

"Can you leave the light on?"
Old 10-25-04, 11:47 AM
  #19  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by OldDude
Silliest group of atheists I've heard of. Why work everybody up by claiming to worship Satan. They get upset enough when they hear you don't believe in any magical, mystical beings. Why introduce a pretend pretend being?
Agreed. That is exactly what I have always said. They just enjoy the "shock value" of calling themselves Satanists.

However....I will say that there is something incredibly funny about reading through the Satanic FAQ page and coming across a "Fun Fact" That is slaying me.
Old 10-25-04, 12:19 PM
  #20  
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 33,237
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Where can I get one of those "mating signals"? Does it need batteries?
Old 10-25-04, 12:50 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Bandoman
Where can I get one of those "mating signals"? Does it need batteries?
I think your signal is strong enough without batteries.
Old 10-25-04, 04:19 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Triangle, NC, USA
Posts: 8,809
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Skimming that long FAQ, Satanism as identified there seems more like a philosophy than a 'religion'. I guess the 'Satan' part is simply the embodiment/symbol of those tenets.
But LaVey's 'Satanism' does not look/sound like 'devil worship.'
And I've always heard that 'Hollywood satanism' [you know, the cats-sacrificed at midnight stuff] is not 'true satanism'.
Anyway, as long as he's not doing anything like killing cats or harassing others, I don't see a problem with it.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.