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Can Poker disavow the flush?

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Can Poker disavow the flush?

Old 10-23-04, 02:07 AM
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Can Poker disavow the flush?

I notice weak players always hit flushes, especially when I have AA. I vote to get rid of it.
Old 10-23-04, 09:26 AM
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Yeah. How come a flush is higher in rank than a str8, but easier for everybody but you and me to make?

There should be a chop thingie in poker where if you win with a crap hand against a decent one, you have to chop.
Old 10-23-04, 07:58 PM
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I'm thinking about trying an "all flush" or close to it strategy for low limit "no foldem" holdem. You can't win with pairs so you might as well throw them away. I've lost with QQ the last 8 times I've had it. The last two I hit a set on the flop and lost anyway.

I think in these games with 8 callers for every flop it might be better to just play "sooted" cards and hope for a flush and no paired board. ANY two suited cards. Even 23s is 80% to win against 8 callers with a 3 suit non-paired board.

Maybe throw in some higher offsuit connectors and semi connectors like T9 and up and T8 and up. This way you usually hit the good end of the straight.

Playing good starting hands for raises has definately not worked in my limited efforts with low holdem. Might as well try something else.

jr
Old 10-24-04, 09:21 AM
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Well, here's your odds with a "sooted" hand.

Youíll make your flush 6.5 percent of the time. Thatís about once out of 15 tries.

Youíll flop a four-flush 10.9% and start chasing a 35% chance of making it.

Youíll flop a flush 0.8%. Naturally, youíre gonna get beat by either a higher flush or a boat.
Originally posted by John Richmond
Even 23s is 80% to win against 8 callers with a 3 suit non-paired board.
Interesting. How'd you arrive at that %?
Old 10-24-04, 01:39 PM
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Looked it up with PokerAnalyzer.
Old 10-24-04, 04:13 PM
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I hope you can get your money back.
Old 10-25-04, 12:06 AM
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Ok, it's 78.7%. So sue me for rounding to an even number. I'm beginning to see what Deftones means now.

jr
Old 10-25-04, 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by John Richmond
Ok, it's 78.7%. So sue me for rounding to an even number. I'm beginning to see what Deftones means now.


I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one......
Old 10-25-04, 03:04 AM
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Wow, I've been playing at Pacific Poker this weekend and I've never seen so many people stay in on flush draws. It's absolutely incredible.

ANY two suited usually wins. It's incredible.

Low limit no-foldem. Might as well pitch in a buck per person and deal 5 cards face up and call it good.
Old 10-25-04, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by John Richmond
I'm beginning to see what Deftones means now.
Yeah, whatever.

Have you considered how completely STUPID that figure is? Find me anybody who believes that 23s has an 80% win rate.

Numbers are ~5% out of 100,000 hands using Wilson software.

But, hey, you keep playing your 23s.
Old 10-25-04, 01:47 PM
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I usually toss 2 3 suited

If a flush comes, with 8 other people in, you'll probably have a lower flush.

If a straight comes, you'll need a 4 and a 5 to go with it. High chance of having a lower straight here too.

Forget about pairs, unless you can get trips or a boat.

I can't see where the 78.9% figure comes from either.
Old 10-25-04, 06:22 PM
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Even 23s is 80% to win against 8 callers with a 3 suit non-paired board.
Obviously I wasn't clear enough here. If you have 23 of spades and the final board shows 3 spades and no pairs ( After all the cards have been dealt) then at the showdown you have a 78.7% chance of having the best hand--even if all 8 callers go all the way to the showdown.

Your odds would be even better if a few of them mucked along the way. This would happen primarily when the board only flops one spade instead of two. If the board flops two spades then anyone with two spades will not fold (in no-foldem holdem).

I'm not advocating holding 23s in any game other than low limit where 80% of the players are seeing EVERY flop. In a more normal holdem game then it's not a good strategy.

Do you still take issue with these numbers Wizdar?

jr
Old 10-25-04, 06:29 PM
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Ahh I get it now.

And the thing is, in no fold em hold em, people will stay in with anything because it only costs them .05/.10/.25 to do so.

I love this sometimes though, because I still only play high suited cards, like AQ or AK or AJ. Then when we both hit our flushes, he bets at it hard and he's fucked.
Old 10-25-04, 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by El Scorcho
Ahh I get it now.

And the thing is, in no fold em hold em, people will stay in with anything because it only costs them .05/.10/.25 to do so.

I love this sometimes though, because I still only play high suited cards, like AQ or AK or AJ. Then when we both hit our flushes, he bets at it hard and he's fucked.
I agree with you about the higher flushes. My main point was to point out something I hadn't known and that was the fact that even if you had the lowest possible flush there was only a 20% chance that someone had a higher flush. It seems higher than that but you only notice the hands where someone actually does have a higher flush and forget about the hands where only one had the flush.

From your earlier comments Scorch, it appears you weren't aware of that number either. Glad I could be of service.

jr
Old 10-25-04, 07:13 PM
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I wasn't aware of the exact number but still, if you pursue a 2-3 suited and nail your flush, you'll get beat 20% of the time. Not bad. But those 20% of the time you do get beat, you'll tend to get raped for a lot of chips.
Old 10-25-04, 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by El Scorcho
I wasn't aware of the exact number but still, if you pursue a 2-3 suited and nail your flush, you'll get beat 20% of the time. Not bad. But those 20% of the time you do get beat, you'll tend to get raped for a lot of chips.
Usally if someone bets or raises and I have the low flush I'll just call. HOWEVER, I have had just as many people raising with a straight or 2 pair as with a higher flush. It always makes me blink when they reveal their cards. I keep forgetting that most of the players at that level have no idea how to play.
Old 10-25-04, 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by John Richmond
Obviously I wasn't clear enough here.
No shit.

So, Youíve got 23s, and flop a 3-flush, and youíre gonna chase it to the river. The only issue Iíve got is where do you play and whatís your screenname?

Old 10-25-04, 09:24 PM
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In no-foldem holdem if you have 23s and the flop is 2h 8s Kd and you can see the turn card for 1 sb (or free) and there are 80% of players still in the hand then YES it's a good play to see the turn. If the turn is a spade that doesn't pair the board then you can determine whether it's worth it to pay for the river at that time by how much is in the pot and how many players are left.

Have you ever played no-foldem holdem, Wizdar?
Old 10-26-04, 09:28 AM
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Let me see if Iíve got this right. if you have 23s and the flop is 2h 8s Kd and you can see the turn card for 1 sb (or free) and there are 80% of players still in the hand and itís Tuesday and itís before 9 PM and I havenít heard from my lawyer in the last 24 hours and Ė have I forgotten anything?

Well, when you put it that way, hell, I'll chase runner-runner all night long.
Old 10-26-04, 05:13 PM
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You know, I didn't post this info to be made fun of. I thought it might help someone who plays at the micro limits. Hopefully you're not such an ass in person. That's all I'm gonna say.
Old 10-26-04, 07:26 PM
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Simmer down ladies, does this look like Erection Talk or even Video Game Talk? Don't make me take a dump on your XBOX.
Old 10-26-04, 07:43 PM
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Asshat is the term Iím usually pegged with.

If you want to chase flushes, thatís your right. You want to advise others to do the same, and then come up with a doctored hand to prove youíre right, thatís something else. You expect it to go unchallenged?

I think most folks around here would like to become better players. Youíre not helping by advocating playing crap hands.

It doesnít take any talent to play badly.
Old 10-26-04, 07:45 PM
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Heh. Didn't see your post, GP. Feel free to delete mine if you think it's over the line. I don't have buttons where I'm at or I would just to keep the peace.
Old 10-26-04, 07:55 PM
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Answer the question Wizdar....have you ever played no-foldem holdem?
Old 10-27-04, 03:32 AM
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He probably hasn't. I used to play it. It's a losing proposition. You are always going to end up in the negative unless you leave with somehow a few stacks high. I think it's better to let the no foldem idiots out chase each other, the better players foot a bankroll and play tables where a guy won't play 7/2o on the gun then somehow hits an insane running flush on the river to crack your AA while you were raising the whole way.

Now with that said...

Simmer down now!

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