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-   -   Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so! (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/380824-swiftboat-shills-lying-gasp-say-aint-so.html)

chess 08-19-04 08:08 AM

Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!
 
From AP on Yahoo:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rry_war_critic

Navy Documents Cast Doubt on Kerry Critic

48 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - A Vietnam veteran who claims Sen. John Kerry lied about being under fire during a Mekong Delta engagement that won Kerry a Bronze Star was under constant fire himself during the same skirmish, according to the man's own medal citation, a newspaper reported.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star in the engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he also was under attack, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

Thurlow, also like Kerry, commanded a Navy Swift boat during the Vietnam War. Thurlow swore in an affidavit last month that Kerry was "not under fire" when he rescued Lt. James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River.

Thurlow's records, obtained by the Post under the Freedom of Information Act, include references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at all five boats in the flotilla that day. In his Bronze Star citation, Thurlow is praised for helping a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

The records said Thurlow's actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire," which Thurlow ignored in providing immediate assistance to the disabled boat and its crew.

Thurlow is a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans who have aired a television advertisement attacking Kerry's war record.

Kerry has described how his boat came under fire from the river banks after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. Swift boat. Kerry and members of his crew say the firing continued as Kerry leaned over to fish out Rassmann, who was blown overboard in another explosion.

Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated," saying "I never heard a shot."

Thurlow, a registered Republican, said he was angry with Kerry for his anti-war activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.

Thurlow told the Post that he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined.

"This casts doubt on anybody's awards," he said. "It is sickening and disgusting."

He said he believed his own award would be "fraudulent" if it was based on coming under enemy fire.

"We weren't under fire," he insisted, speculating that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he would not authorize release of his military records because he feared the Kerry campaign would discredit him.

Members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. Rassmann said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks.

Chew 08-19-04 08:10 AM

1 down, 253 to go.

chess 08-19-04 08:11 AM

The Reuters version:

Records Contradict Kerry Critic's Charges -Report

Thu Aug 19, 5:56 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Military records contradict a critic's charge that U.S. Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry (news - web sites) did not come under fire during the battle that resulted in military honors for Kerry, The Washington Post reported on Thursday.

Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has disputed that the Massachusetts Democratic senator was shot at during the March 1969 raid that resulted in Bronze Stars to both men.

But Thurlow's military records, partially obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by The Washington Post, contain references to "enemy small arms and automatic fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla, the newspaper says.

Kerry has made frequent references to his Vietnam war experience during his campaign to make the case for his aptitude as a military leader. Thurlow is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has sponsored a television commercial questioning Kerry's war record.

Iron Chef 08-19-04 08:13 AM

Let the character assassination begin!






Did I get it right?

chess 08-19-04 08:14 AM


Originally posted by Chew
1 down, 253 to go.
If one of them lied about the gunfire, they all lied about the gunfire.

OldDude 08-19-04 08:16 AM

At least the AP version carries Thurlow's rebuttal so the reader is aware the point is contested, unlike the Reuters version which clearly (by omission) stakes out the "Thurlow is lying" position.

chess 08-19-04 08:16 AM


Originally posted by Iron Chef
Let the character assassination begin!

Did I get it right?

[wolf]Just because you are a character, doesn't mean you have character.[/wolf]

Chew 08-19-04 08:18 AM


Originally posted by chess
If one of them lied about the gunfire, they all lied about the gunfire.
I have no idea who is lying and who isn't. But, to counter that: the whole "Christmas in Cambodia" event that is seared, SEARED in Kerry's mind was proven false. If Kerry lied about Cambodia, maybe there's more there too.

chess 08-19-04 08:18 AM


Originally posted by OldDude
At least the AP version carries Thurlow's rebuttal so the reader is aware the point is contested, unlike the Reuters version will clearly (by omission) stakes out the "Thurlow is lying" position.
Ahhh....a nuance.

I think we're making progress. ;)

Tommy Ceez 08-19-04 08:22 AM

I believe his contention is that during Vietnam, the 'hero search' led to some creative citation writing...since Kerrys citation is tied in with his (same event) then his records also show the same fabrication...he still contends there was no gunfire.

So for all the "I dont care what Bush's paperwork says! No one can recall him reporting for duty!" people...do you reject the "I dont care what mine and Kerrys records say! There was no gunfire!" argument outright? Can you and still be considered a non partisan observer?

chess 08-19-04 08:23 AM


Originally posted by Chew
I have no idea who is lying and who isn't. But, to counter that: the whole "Christmas in Cambodia" event that is seared, SEARED in Kerry's mind was proven false. If Kerry lied about Cambodia, maybe there's more there too.
translated:

I don't know who's lying, but it's probably Kerry, so let's change the subject. rotfl

chess 08-19-04 08:26 AM


Originally posted by Tommy Ceez
I believe his contention is that during Vietnam, the 'hero search' led to some creative citation writing...since Kerrys citation is tied in with his (same event) then his records also show the same fabrication...he still contends there was no gunfire.

So for all the "I dont care what Bush's paperwork says! No one can recall him reporting for duty!" people...do you reject the "I dont care what mine and Kerrys records say! There was no gunfire!" argument outright? Can you and still be considered a non partisan observer?

I would ask the same question of those who don't believe Kerry about anything IN SPITE of the fact that the documentation supports him.

I make no claims to be nonpartisan, though I'm not a registered Democrat.

Chew 08-19-04 08:27 AM


Originally posted by chess
translated:

I don't know who's lying, but it's probably Kerry, so let's change the subject. :rotfl:

As I said, I don't know who's lying. I don't know what the true story is.

I'm willing to admit the Swift Boat vets may be lying. Are you willing to do the same for Kerry?

chess 08-19-04 08:32 AM


Originally posted by Chew
As I said, I don't know who's lying. I don't know what the true story is.

I'm willing to admit the Swift Boat vets may be lying. Are you willing to do the same for Kerry?

I'd be happy to do he same, assuming that you have something other than a few clicks this way or that way across a border to support that assertion. Basically, I have no reason to believe that Kerry lied.

I will admit to being a bit troubled by the lack of support from his fellow officers (being an officer myself), but I firmly believe that this is about his postwar protests and his political ideology rather than truth.

Chew 08-19-04 08:36 AM

When F911 came out, no one was allowed to rip the movie without having seen it. I guess the same holds true: how about read the book and decide for yourself whether Kerry or the vets are being truthful? The book has plenty of records, documents, and testimony to back it up as well.

chess 08-19-04 10:32 AM


Originally posted by Chew
When F911 came out, no one was allowed to rip the movie without having seen it. I guess the same holds true: how about read the book and decide for yourself whether Kerry or the vets are being truthful? The book has plenty of records, documents, and testimony to back it up as well.
The point about F911 is a mostly fair one. folks had a choice whether or not to partake in F911 just as they have a choice whether or not to buy this book. :up:

However, Moore didn't market his movie solely in swing states and as far as I know, didn't buy any ad time for any purpose other than to promote his film.

Further, nobody has credibly charged Moore with outright lying (distortion and unfair characterization maybe) or threatened to sue him for libel. Neither is true for this group or this book.

This is an old fashioned smear campaign, full of lies, funded by republican cronies, with all profits going to support a man that I have almost zero regard for. I therefore choose not to support it financially. If I considered the source even remotely credible, I would probably read it, and I may after the election. For now, I've seen the commercials and have read excerpts, and I think I get the picture. :rolleyes:

Applejack 08-19-04 10:46 AM

This really isn't too surprising, since they did the same to McCain four years ago.

It would be nice if Bush would denounce the ads, but instead he chooses to act like he respects Kerry's military service when he has shown otherwise.

wmansir 08-19-04 10:57 AM


Originally posted by Applejack
This really isn't too surprising, since they did the same to McCain four years ago.

It would be nice if Bush would denounce the ads, but instead he chooses to act like he respects Kerry's military service when he has shown otherwise.
When?

Turd Ferguson 08-19-04 11:09 AM


Originally posted by Applejack
This really isn't too surprising, since they did the same to McCain four years ago.

It would be nice if Bush would denounce the ads, but instead he chooses to act like he respects Kerry's military service when he has shown otherwise.

So when is Kerry going to denounce MoveOn.org and F911?

Applejack 08-19-04 11:10 AM


Originally posted by wmansir
When?
By not really even adressing the ads or book, it appears to me that he feels that he can attack Kerry through the swiftboat guys and then fall back on the "I respect Kerry for his service, it wasn't me" line.

Applejack 08-19-04 11:14 AM


Originally posted by Turd Ferguson
So when is Kerry going to denounce MoveOn.org and F911?
When what they say is proven to be false? When Michael Moore or moveon.org gets hit with a lawsuit for libel as the swiftboat people have been?

X 08-19-04 11:16 AM


Originally posted by Applejack
When what they say is proven to be false? When Michael Moore or moveon.org gets hit with a lawsuit for libel as the swiftboat people have been?
Let us know when it gets to court and what the verdict is please!

Th0r S1mpson 08-19-04 11:17 AM

As posted above, Bush cannot criticize the swift boat veterans for their book unless he's read it. :lol:

I agree though... anyone here who used the line about F911 and how you have to watch it before judging it had better hold themselves to the same standard here.

dork 08-19-04 11:19 AM


Originally posted by Turd Ferguson
So when is Kerry going to denounce MoveOn.org and F911?
You're in luck!

nemein 08-19-04 11:20 AM


Originally posted by dork
You're in luck!
Not if you don't want to register w/ them ;)


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