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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

Old 08-26-04, 12:29 PM
  #276  
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"Hey, he ain't got anything, not even chemicals to clean his many pools."
Except that isn't what they were saying.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by dolphinboy
How about the inspectors being allowed back in and them saying, "Hey, he ain't got anything, not even chemicals to clean his many pools."
Good idea. If Saddam hadn't kept expelling the inspectors that's probably exactly what would have happened. Instead he kicked them out repeatedly, blocked access to certain sites, destroyed monitoring equipment.. I'm sure you'll remember Blix's report that they were not given the proper access they were promised. Hopefully you'll start to realize who really started this and blame the right person.. but blaming Bush is so much more fun.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:55 PM
  #278  
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Originally posted by General Zod
Dude i'm telling you, one more week of those intensive UN pressures and Saddam would have cracked!! (And it was actually 12 years of diplomacy - not a few months).

Shhhhh, you might say the "C" word and derail everything!
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Old 08-26-04, 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by General Zod
Good idea. If Saddam hadn't kept expelling the inspectors that's probably exactly what would have happened. Instead he kicked them out repeatedly, blocked access to certain sites, destroyed monitoring equipment.. I'm sure you'll remember Blix's report that they were not given the proper access they were promised. Hopefully you'll start to realize who really started this and blame the right person.. but blaming Bush is so much more fun.
Oh, so it's all Saddam's fault?!

Silly Zod.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:03 PM
  #280  
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That damned problem with nuances is going to be tough to defend when it's much better to, say, make a bad decision and not change your mind or not allow yourself to let new information change your point of view. Damn Kerry for changing his mind and not believing in only absolutes told to him by Jesus or Cheney in a Jesus costume.
But he's changed it so often - not just during the general election season. He changed it nearly every debate he had in the Democratic primary. He tried to keep up with Howard Dean, and finally managed to out-Dean even Dean when it came to an anti-war stance. Of course he felt like he had to take this course considering the Democratic primary voter.

Now he's running full force toward the center in order to appeal to the less, shall we say, left-wing vote of the general electorate.

To be perfectly candid, I doubt that any of Kerry's mind changing (change of positions) has anything to do with real convictions. It's merely a matter of adapting to the political realities of the time. Most politicians engage in such behavior.

In that way - he's much like Clinton - a man of no real convictions -only adapting to what is popular at the moment.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:16 PM
  #281  
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Originally posted by weargle
So months and months means yes it was a rush job? You need help, and perhaps a calendar.
And you need to learn to read. I said that if you call what Bush did in his dealings with the UN diplomacy (I sure don't) then yes, he rushed into the war.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:18 PM
  #282  
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What was it then?
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Old 08-26-04, 01:26 PM
  #283  
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Originally posted by classicman2
But he's changed it so often - not just during the general election season. He changed it nearly every debate he had in the Democratic primary. He tried to keep up with Howard Dean, and finally managed to out-Dean even Dean when it came to an anti-war stance. Of course he felt like he had to take this course considering the Democratic primary voter.

Now he's running full force toward the center in order to appeal to the less, shall we say, left-wing vote of the general electorate.

To be perfectly candid, I doubt that any of Kerry's mind changing (change of positions) has anything to do with real convictions. It's merely a matter of adapting to the political realities of the time. Most politicians engage in such behavior.

In that way - he's much like Clinton - a man of no real convictions -only adapting to what is popular at the moment.
Doesn't every challenger do this? DId Bush not do this* in 2000? Or does that not fit in with you "man of conviction" argument.

*"this" meaning run to the far right (Bob Jones anyone?) and then moving to the center for the general election against Gore.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:27 PM
  #284  
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
If you call Bush's dealings with the UN diplomacy then the answer is yes.
Originally posted by Captain Pike
And you need to learn to read. I said that if you call what Bush did in his dealings with the UN diplomacy (I sure don't) then yes, he rushed into the war.
You don't think that getting all of the permanent members of the UN to vote aye is diplomacy? You don't think that the months of getting facts together and members on board is diplomacy? But you think that these same months are rushed?


Now for a little discussion about if/then statements: you really can't have two separate and distinct ideas and use them together. Since you're all about reading comprehension these days, I think that you'll agree that you can't have a yes to the "rush" to war phrase depend on the statement "If you call Bush's dealings with the UN diplomacy".
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Old 08-26-04, 01:28 PM
  #285  
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apologies in advance, c-man. I just noted your disclaimer that it is common practice to shift between primaries and general election.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:30 PM
  #286  
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Originally posted by weargle
You don't think that getting all of the permanent members of the UN to vote aye is diplomacy? You don't think that the months of getting facts together and members on board is diplomacy? But you think that these same months are rushed?


Now for a little discussion about if/then statements: you really can't have two separate and distinct ideas and use them together. Since you're all about reading comprehension these days, I think that you'll agree that you can't have a yes to the "rush" to war phrase depend on the statement "If you call Bush's dealings with the UN diplomacy".
reality: we could have maintained the inspection process indefinately. Saddam was contained and we had bigger fish to fry...namely Osama. Unfortunately for Bush, support for his pet war was not indefinate.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by chess
reality: we could have maintained the inspection process indefinately.
Nice simplistic view, but the real reality comes in when you start considering what Saddam had done (in invading his neighbors, killing tens of thousands, torturing his own people). You get someone like that and throw in the possibility that they might have WMD's, and you have a serious problem that needs to be delt with right away. The U.N. agreed, the congress of the United States agreed, a majority of the country agreed. That's the reality.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by General Zod
Nice simplistic view, but the real reality comes in when you start considering what Saddam had done (in invading his neighbors, killing tens of thousands, torturing his own people). You get someone like that and throw in the possibility that they might have WMD's, and you have a serious problem that needs to be delt with right away. The U.N. agreed, the congress of the United States agreed, a majority of the country agreed. That's the reality.

So, if that was the reason then why haven't we invaded and occupied a half dozen other nations by now? And if the UN agreed then why didn't Bush have that vote that he called for (time to show your cards!)? Oh...right. It was because the UN didn't agree.

Sorry, his view wasn't simplistic. His was very realistic. Your expressed views are just Bush party line propaganda.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:49 PM
  #289  
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Ack! What am I doing? I let you guys change the subject.

Here's the latest:

- At least two award citations of the swift boat partisans for smear indicate that they were under fire the day Kerry earned his bronze star...which they deny in the book.

- A member of the Bush campaign's veterans steering committee apears in first swiftboat partisans for smear ad. He resigns.

- The commander of boat next to Kerrys affirms his story about the silver star.

- Bush's chief legal counsel resigns over ties to swiftboat partisans for smear.

- O'neill is found on Nixon's watergate tapes affirming that he was in Cambodia...which he denies in his "book".

- A letter is delivered to Max Cleland from Bush's ranch yesterday supporting the swiftboat partisans for smear...at least that's how I read it.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:55 PM
  #290  
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O'neill is found on Nixon's watergate tapes affirming that he was in Cambodia...which he denies in his "book".
See his answer to this here:
http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp...eill082604.htm
John E. O'Neill: I lied to no one. You quote the first half of the statement but ignore the following sentence. I clearly said that I was on the Cambodian border. I was on a canal system known as Bernique’s Creek located about 100 yards south of the Cambodian border from which it would have been very difficult to get into Cambodia at least from a boat.

I never went to Cambodia. Unlike the Kerry story you are defensive about I don’t believe I can ever fairly be interpreted as saying anything different. John Kerry on many different occasions said that the turning point of his life was being in Cambodia illegally for Christmas Eve and Christmas in 1968. This was in a different area than I was in and close approach to Cambodia was not possible for him in that area. In fact he was more than 50 miles away. How many people invent the turning point of their life and repeat it on the senate floor, in articles and more than 50 times in 35 years?
The "you" refers to a caller who called in and asked the question.

To the contrary the problem for the Kerry campaign is that the written records back us and not him. Numerous written records show that he was not in Cambodia on Christmas or Christmas Eve in 1968 including his authorized his biography Tour of Duty. With respect to the Sampan incident on January 20, 1969, Kerry describes the incident in the book Tour of Duty notwithstanding the fact that Kerry in tour says that there was a family of four in the boat, his written report to the United States Navy describes a nonexistent Vietnam squad and omits the small child he said he killed. With respect to Kerry’s first Purple Heart, the causality report and the hostile fire report required for a Purple Heart are both missing because there was no casualty and there was no hostile fire. With respect to Kerry’s third Purple Heart, the records show he reported shrapnel wound in his hip to the Navy as coming from an underwater mine. However his own book at page 313 and 317 makes clear that he wounded himself with a grenade. The single most powerful witness against John Kerry is John Kerry’s through contrasting his own written accounts with what he reported to the Navy. See the book for a more complete answer since space here makes it difficult to go on.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:56 PM
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chess; Don't forget Oregonian Alfred French who flat out lied:

In the ad, French says: "I served with John Kerry ... . He is lying about his record."

Before recording the ad, French signed an affidavit that said: "I am able to swear, as I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and within my personal knowledge and belief."

It goes on to say: "Kerry has wildly exaggerated and lied about his record in Vietnam," and that Kerry received his Purple Heart medals "in the absence of hostile fire."

In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper on Thursday, French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry, and did not personally witness the events.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:57 PM
  #292  
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Originally posted by General Zod
Nice simplistic view, but the real reality comes in when you start considering what Saddam had done (in invading his neighbors, killing tens of thousands, torturing his own people). You get someone like that and throw in the possibility that they might have WMD's, and you have a serious problem that needs to be delt with right away. The U.N. agreed, the congress of the United States agreed, a majority of the country agreed. That's the reality.
I don't want to drag this out, as it's off topic, but suffice it to say that I do not now, nor did I ever, nor will I ever believe that Saddam was a threat to the United States of America.

And really, if you buy the party line about how we invaded Iraq to save the Iraqi people from Saddam, then I'd love to know why we aren't in Africa right now. For that matter, what I'd really like to know is what France is doing in Africa. I'm sure they have an angle, right? right?

We invaded Iraq for a variety of reasons, which seemed to flip flop every couple of months...and that liberation nonsense is just the only remotely credible one left (WMDs? link to Al Qaeda?). Please feel free to cling to that thread of credibility at all costs.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:59 PM
  #293  
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Originally posted by chess
- The commander of boat next to Kerrys affirms his story about the silver star.
For weeks, the left's only defense was "those guys weren't on the boat with Kerry," but when Rood writes a pro-Kerry article from an identical perspective as Thurlow, Pees, and Chenoweth, suddenly another officer on the same mission becomes a reliable source.
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Old 08-26-04, 02:00 PM
  #294  
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your last post confuses me.


i supported the war because i thought the iraqi people should be saved. i support going into sudan for the same reason. that doesnt really have much to do with why bush went in
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Old 08-26-04, 02:01 PM
  #295  
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So, if that was the reason then why haven't we invaded and occupied a half dozen other nations by now?
How many of those half-dozen nations have signed a surrender agreement with us?
And if the UN agreed then why didn't Bush have that vote that he called for (time to show your cards!)?
The UN agreed that Saddam was a problem that needed to be dealt with. That's why they passed resolution after resolution over 12 years.
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Old 08-26-04, 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
chess; Don't forget Oregonian Alfred French who flat out lied:

In the ad, French says: "I served with John Kerry ... . He is lying about his record."

Before recording the ad, French signed an affidavit that said: "I am able to swear, as I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and within my personal knowledge and belief."

It goes on to say: "Kerry has wildly exaggerated and lied about his record in Vietnam," and that Kerry received his Purple Heart medals "in the absence of hostile fire."

In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper on Thursday, French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry, and did not personally witness the events.
sorry, it's hard to keep up...something new seems to be exposed every day.

It's actually sort of nice to see the press doing some actual journalism on this...for a change.
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Old 08-26-04, 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by chess
And really, if you buy the party line about how we invaded Iraq to save the Iraqi people from Saddam...
And if we went to Iraq to save the Iraqis from Saddam then why are we engaged in a war now with the very people we claimed to have gone there to liberate? Saddam is gone and yet the administration isn't satisfied. They don't trust the Iraqis to determine their own futures, to do the work of reconstruction, to develop their own government etc. Rather they choose to war with the civilian population that we were supposed to be there to "free."
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Old 08-26-04, 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
And if we went to Iraq to save the Iraqis from Saddam then why are we engaged in a war now with the very people we claimed to have gone there to liberate? Saddam is gone and yet the administration isn't satisfied. They don't trust the Iraqis to determine their own futures, to do the work of reconstruction, to develop their own government etc. Rather they choose to war with the civilian population that we were supposed to be there to "free."
you think all those in there we are fighting are civilians? or even iraqis for that matter?


you do propose we leave right now?
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Old 08-26-04, 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by chess
reality: we could have maintained the inspection process indefinately. Saddam was contained and we had bigger fish to fry...namely Osama. Unfortunately for Bush, support for his pet war was not indefinate.
Reality: Those inspectors wouldn't have been there if Bush hadn't pushed the UN for their return (they left rather abruptly for some reason back in '98 and never went back).
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Old 08-26-04, 02:05 PM
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We invaded Iraq for a variety of reasons, which seemed to flip flop every couple of months...and that liberation nonsense is just the only remotely credible one left (WMDs? link to Al Qaeda?). Please feel free to cling to that thread of credibility at all costs.
They are the same reasons that Bush listed in his address to the UN at the beginning of this whole thing. There is and was a link between Saddam and Al Quida and the Iraq war is part of the war on terror. What is flip-flopping are the reasons to hate Bush, not reasons given for going into Iraq.
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