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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

Old 08-26-04, 10:19 AM
  #251  
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And he abused it. Patriot act, Iraqi War.
How did John Kerry vote on the Patriot Act?

How did John Kerry vote on the congressional resolution to use force in Iraq?
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Old 08-26-04, 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
How did John Kerry vote on the Patriot Act?

How did John Kerry vote on the congressional resolution to use force in Iraq?
Red Herring. He was tricked by Karl Rove.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:27 AM
  #253  
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Originally posted by classicman2
How did John Kerry vote on the Patriot Act?

How did John Kerry vote on the congressional resolution to use force in Iraq?
That's why he abused it. In the post 9/11 months everyone was united so virtually everything that was related to homeland security was approved.

Besides, this is not about how Kerry voted, but how Bush handled 9/11. The war in Afghanistan was very useful, I just don't understand why he didn't use more of our forces to get Bin Laden. If he concentrated on that instead of Iraq we could have caught him by now I think.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by exm
The reason we went to war is WMD which weren't there. Even although the intelligence is to blame primarily for this, Bush didn't apologize, even worse he said that know what he knew now he still would have went to war (not mentioning he probably wouldn't have received approval from Congress)
Kerry Says He Would Have voted for the Iraq War Knowing What We Know Now
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Old 08-26-04, 10:31 AM
  #255  
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Yes and I disagree with that.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:31 AM
  #256  
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Since this has veered way off topic:
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0408260833.asp
August 26, 2004, 8:33 a.m.
Media-Ready Crib Sheet
Twenty questions for John Kerry.

By Peter Kirsanow

Senator Kerry has been pretty successfully avoiding the media, but sometime between now and November 2 he'll have to sit down for a far-ranging interview on a program other than The Daily Show on Comedy Central. Thus far, most Kerry interviews have been less-than-penetrating (one recent poll even indicates that nearly a third of the electorate knows very little about John Kerry) and certainly not hostile (in comparison, see, among other things, President Bush's press conference of last spring). Bill Clinton was subjected to far-greater scrutiny by this time in the 1992 election cycle. Kerry's legendary policy flip-flops as well as his campaign's shifting stories related to the current controversy compel questioning at least as tough as that directed at Kerry's critics.


Here are only a few of the questions Kerry hasn't adequately addressed. They don't even have anything to do with swift boats. There are no "gotcha" questions. They're posed in a respectful manner. In fact, many are softballs. After all, few interviewers would wish to alienate Kerry and foreclose the possibility of follow-up interviews. With that in mind, here goes:

1. The Bush campaign maintains that you spent 20 years in the Senate with no signature legislative achievements. What do you consider to be the five most important pieces of legislation that you've authored?

a. What's the most important piece of legislation regarding intelligence you've authored?

b. What's the most important piece of antiterrorism legislation you've authored?

c. What's the most important piece of health-care legislation you've authored?

d. What's the most important piece of education legislation you've authored?

2. You'd agree that on paper, Dick Cheney's experience and qualifications dwarf those of your running mate. Why would John Edwards make a better president during the war on terror than Dick Cheney?

a. It's been widely reported that John McCain was your first choice as running mate. If true, why did you prefer Senator McCain to Senator Edwards?

3. Earlier this year you told Tim Russert that you'd release all of your military records, yet you've failed to do so and you refuse to release your Vietnam journal. Why shouldn't the public infer that the contents of these documents would undermine your credibility or otherwise damage your candidacy?

a. When will you release the documents?

4. You've stated that you believe that life begins at conception yet you voted against the ban on partial-birth abortions. At precisely what point is a life worth protecting?

a. Is there any limitation on abortion (waiting periods, parental notification) for which you'd vote? If so, what?

5. You've promised to repeal much of the Bush tax cut and while in the Senate you voted to raise taxes an average of five times per year. If current economic trends remain largely unchanged during a Kerry presidency, would you seek additional tax increases?

a. How would you raise taxes and what are the highest marginal tax rates that you'd support?

6. You opposed the 1991 Gulf War even though Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, had invaded another country, and France and Germany had supported the war. In the current conflict no WMDs have been found, France and Germany oppose the action, and Saddam hadn't invaded another country. Yet you recently stated that knowing what you know now, you'd nonetheless authorize the use of force even though you voted against funding it. Could you please reconcile these positions?

7. You acknowledge meeting with representatives of North Vietnam and the Viet Cong in Paris in 1970. Afterward you urged Congress to accept the North Vietnamese proposals. Please explain how this wasn't a violation of the Logan Act and, if you were still in the Naval Reserves at that time, how it wasn't a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibiting unauthorized communications with the enemy.

8. In several speeches before black audiences you've stated that a million African Americans were disenfranchised and had their votes stolen in the 2000 presidential election. There are no official or media investigations that support that statement. What evidence do you have to support the statement and if you believe a million blacks had their votes stolen, why haven't you called for criminal prosecutions and congressional investigations?

9. Do you dispute the National Journal's assessment that you're the nation's most liberal senator? If you do, which senators do you consider to be more liberal and why?

10. Why did you propose cutting the intelligence budget by $6 billion in 1994?

11. As president, would you nominate anyone to be either an attorney general, FBI director, or CIA director who had been a leader and chief spokesman for a group that had discussed and voted upon a plan to assassinate U.S. senators (even if the proposed nominee had opposed such plan)?

12. You have consistently stated that you "never, never" attended the November 1971 Kansas City meeting of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which a plan to assassinate six pro-military U.S. senators was discussed. Several newspapers reported that when confronted with FBI surveillance reports, your campaign "all but conceded" that you were in attendance , but claimed that this was a mere "footnote in history."

a. Were you there?

b. Did you discuss the assassination of U.S. senators? What did you say?

c. Did you vote upon such a plan? How did you vote? Were any similar plans discussed by your group at any time? What were they?

d. If the plan was voted down, what steps did you take to insure that supporters of the plan didn't carry it out anyway?

e. Especially considering that this took place in an era of political assassinations and assassination attempts (Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., George Wallace, etc.), did you report the discussion to any law-enforcement authorities? If not, why not?

f. When did you resign from the organization?

g. Do you dispute reports that you continued as a spokesman for the organization for more than a year after the Kansas City meeting?

h. If this was a mere footnote in history why have you repeatedly and vehemently denied you were there?

i. Did your campaign, as alleged in several newspaper accounts, attempt to get a witness to change his story about your attendance?

13. You have criticized the Patriot Act. What portions would you repeal or amend and why? What evidence do you have of any abuses of the Patriot Act?

14. As president, what would you do about Iran's emerging nuclear capability?

15. During your eight-year tenure on the Senate Intelligence Committee you missed more than thee fourths of all public meetings. It's also been reported that you have skipped or delayed receiving intelligence briefings during the campaign. Why should the public believe that you're serious about this issue?

16. What do you think is appropriate punishment for guards (and their superiors) found guilty of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib? Do you believe they should be stripped of command and receive dishonorable discharges and prison time?

17. On May 6, 2001, on Meet the Press, you stated that you had committed "the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers" in violation of the Geneva Convention. Specifically, you said you burned villages and "used 50-calibre machine guns, which [you] were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people."

a. Who ordered you to use 50-caliber machine guns on people?

b. How many people did you shoot with the 50s and how many of them were killed or wounded?

c. When and where did these shootings occur?

d. What other atrocities did you commit and when?

e. Which village(s) did you burn down and when?

f. Were any of your crewmembers present during the commission of any of these atrocities?

g. Did you order them to participate in the atrocities? Did they follow your orders?

h. Why were there no reports of these atrocities? Did you order your crew not to report them?

i. Are any of these incidents described in your Vietnam journal? If not, why not?

j. Did you observe thousands of (or any) other troops committing atrocities? When, where and what kind? Did you report them? If not, why not?

k. In light of your admitted atrocities, if Abu Ghraib guards found guilty of abuse should receive prison time and be stripped of command, why do you believe you should be considered for commander-in-chief?

18. Who among the justices currently sitting on the Supreme Court would be a model for your nominees to the federal bench? Why?

19. In a speech before Drake University Law School you characterized U.S. allies in the war in Iraq as "some trumped-up so-called Coalition of the bribed, the coerced, the bought and the extorted,..." Do you maintain that Great Britain has been bribed, coerced, bought, or extorted? What about Italy? Japan? Poland? Please specifically identify those members of the Coalition that have been either bribed, coerced, bought, and extorted and the officials who were bribed or bought.

20. You told George Stephanopoulos that you had a plan to get out of Iraq but refused to provide details. Would you consent to having your secret plan privately evaluated by an independent, bi-partisan panel of military experts who could report the plan's merits to the electorate without divulging the details?

a. Would you also consent to privately revealing to an independent panel the names of the foreign leaders who secretly support you so that the panel can confirm your story to the electorate?

b. Ditto regarding the leaders whom you say have secretly told Senators Biden and Levin that you must win?

Obviously, there are a lot more questions Social Security, health care, etc. Certainly there are tougher questions and those more artfully crafted. This is just a start. Feel free to add your own. TV-newsmagazine producers are welcome to use any of the above.

Peter Kirsanow is...not holding his breath.
Neither am I.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:34 AM
  #257  
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Originally posted by exm
Amazing. If you don't like Kerry, I can respect that, but if you look back what Bush did for our country you must be really a die hard republican /christian to actually favor him:
All of us have opinions on what is going on. It seems more and more that many on your side continue to act like their opinions are the only ones that count (and that can be argued for both sides). The stated facts are the way you interpret them.

I respect your opinions and I ask you respect mine.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:34 AM
  #258  
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Originally posted by bhk
Since this has veered way off topic:
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0408260833.asp

Neither am I.
Fortuately, the press doesn't take advice from right-wing rags like National Review.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:35 AM
  #259  
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He said that he would have voted for the resolution. He does not say that he would have gone to war like Bush did. He agreed that the force authorization was needed so that Bush could put some teeth into negotiations. What he did not agree with was Bush rushing into the war the moment he got approval from Congress.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:39 AM
  #260  
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So now months and months of diplomacy with the UN is rushing into war?
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Old 08-26-04, 10:42 AM
  #261  
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Originally posted by exm
Yes and I disagree with that.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with Kerry's statement, wouldn't you agree it contradicts your assertion that Bush "probably wouldn't have received approval from Congress" to go into Iraq?
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Old 08-26-04, 10:43 AM
  #262  
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Originally posted by Chew
All of us have opinions on what is going on. It seems more and more that many on your side continue to act like their opinions are the only ones that count (and that can be argued for both sides). The stated facts are the way you interpret them.

I respect your opinions and I ask you respect mine.
I respect everyone's opinion; funny that you mention that you think that opinions on 'my' side are the only ones that counts. I've the exact opposite idea.

To define mine: I'm an independent, favoring Reagen (Rep), Clinton (Dem) and right now Kerry (Dem) but I probably would favor McCain (Rep). So which side is that specifically? Am I a 'lefty, liberal, etc'?
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Old 08-26-04, 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by weargle
So now months and months of diplomacy with the UN is rushing into war?
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Old 08-26-04, 10:48 AM
  #264  
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Originally posted by exm
I respect everyone's opinion; funny that you mention that you think that opinions on 'my' side are the only ones that counts. I've the exact opposite idea.

To define mine: I'm an independent, favoring Reagen (Rep), Clinton (Dem) and right now Kerry (Dem) but I probably would favor McCain (Rep). So which side is that specifically? Am I a 'lefty, liberal, etc'?
When I say your side and my side, I meant strictly those for and those against Bush. No other labels.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:52 AM
  #265  
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Fortuately, the press doesn't take advice from right-wing rags like National Review.
I wouldn't care if they didn't as long as they stop getting advice solely from the DNC fax machines.

Care to make any comment regarding the content of the article instead of just attacking the messenger.
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Old 08-26-04, 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by weargle
So now months and months of diplomacy with the UN is rushing into war?
If you call Bush's dealings with the UN diplomacy then the answer is yes.
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Old 08-26-04, 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by bhk
I wouldn't care if they didn't as long as they stop getting advice solely from the DNC fax machines.

Care to make any comment regarding the content of the article instead of just attacking the messenger.
I didn't think it deserved any comment, considering the source. However, if you must have a comment on the content, the article is a bunch of slanted questions from the right-wing perspective on the order of "Have you stopped beating your wife?". How's that?
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Old 08-26-04, 11:50 AM
  #268  
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
If you call Bush's dealings with the UN diplomacy then the answer is yes.
So months and months means yes it was a rush job? You need help, and perhaps a calendar.
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Old 08-26-04, 11:54 AM
  #269  
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Originally posted by weargle
So months and months means yes it was a rush job? You need help, and perhaps a calendar.
Dude i'm telling you, one more week of those intensive UN pressures and Saddam would have cracked!! (And it was actually 12 years of diplomacy - not a few months).
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Old 08-26-04, 11:56 AM
  #270  
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Besides, this is not about how Kerry voted, but how Bush handled 9/11.
What are you talking about?

Of course it's also about how Kerry voted. He's running for the Presidency of the United States.

I understand you ABBers want to absolve Kerry for every vote he took in Senate, but it doesn't work that way. That's his record. Sooner or later, he probably have to defend it. He's got a problem, because he's been a little wishy-washy when it comes to Iraq and even the Patriot Act.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:19 PM
  #271  
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Originally posted by classicman2

He's got a problem, because he's been a little wishy-washy when it comes to Iraq and even the Patriot Act.
That damned problem with nuances is going to be tough to defend when it's much better to, say, make a bad decision and not change your mind or not allow yourself to let new information change your point of view. Damn Kerry for changing his mind and not believing in only absolutes told to him by Jesus or Cheney in a Jesus costume.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by dolphinboy
That damned problem with nuances is going to be tough to defend when it's much better to, say, make a bad decision and not change your mind or not allow yourself to let new information change your point of view. Damn Kerry for changing his mind and not believing in only absolutes told to him by Jesus or Cheney in a Jesus costume.
Jesus?


you realize Kerry says he would not have changed his vote? how did he change his mind then?
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Old 08-26-04, 12:25 PM
  #273  
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Originally posted by dolphinboy
That damned problem with nuances is going to be tough to defend when it's much better to, say, make a bad decision and not change your mind or not allow yourself to let new information change your point of view. Damn Kerry for changing his mind and not believing in only absolutes told to him by Jesus or Cheney in a Jesus costume.
Now even YOU know thats a rediculous post...He didnt have some epihany and change his mind...the same people who call Kerry a flip-flopper applaud Bush's re-thinking of the nation building issue after 9/11...its the fact that his views change DAILY depending on the audience and the wind...what has changed with the Patriot Act since Kerry voted for it? Or are you claiming that he voted for it WITHOUT reading it?

BTW...there are a great many people who admire sticking to your convictions...Bush went into Iraq KNOWING it would s* *t on his high approval rating...Kerry would NEVER do something that may potentially hurt his numbers, now wether you agree with Iraq or not...would you rather have a president that did what he thought he had to do, or a president who only did what makes him popular?
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Old 08-26-04, 12:27 PM
  #274  
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Originally posted by classicman2
I understand you ABBers want to absolve Kerry for every vote he took in Senate, but it doesn't work that way. That's his record. Sooner or later, he probably have to defend it. He's got a problem, because he's been a little wishy-washy when it comes to Iraq and even the Patriot Act.
He's been nuanced when it comes to Iraq, but I'm not sure that's the same as wishy-washy (though I can see how most of the electorate would see it as wishy-washy).

I'm not up to speed on what he's said about USA PATRIOT.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:27 PM
  #275  
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Originally posted by General Zod
Dude i'm telling you, one more week of those intensive UN pressures and Saddam would have cracked!! (And it was actually 12 years of diplomacy - not a few months).
How about the inspectors being allowed back in and them saying, "Hey, he ain't got anything, not even chemicals to clean his many pools."

Oh, then no war, how good for us.

Billions saved for Americans, billions not going to Halliburton, nobody dies in a war that wasn't needed, and we leave the troops in Afghanistan to actually try and finish the job there before worrying what country to invade next.

I'm just saying.
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