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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

Old 08-26-04, 01:33 AM
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Regular love fest in here
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Old 08-26-04, 06:24 AM
  #227  
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This all keeps getting even more messy:

Rep. John Dingell, D-Michigan, called for a Justice Department investigation into the possible connection between ads run by the swift boat group and the president's re-election campaign.

In a letter to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Dingell said the ties between the two groups "suggest a possible violation of the coordination regulations set forth [in federal law]."
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Old 08-26-04, 06:40 AM
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Um it 2004................but I might as well add-

One volunteered to go

One used influence to avoid going

You be the judge
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Old 08-26-04, 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by bfrank
Um it 2004................but I might as well add-

One volunteered to go

One used influence to avoid going

You be the judge
Of course one might add that was over 30 years ago, and that each has accululated a record since then that is of far far greater importance than what happened 30 years ago. One, I'll let you guess who it is, is running like a scared biddy from that record.

If you and the other staunch Kerry supporters are 'sick and tired' of the character assassination of this great American hero, I have a suggestion - you tell all of your friends to contact John and say tell him the following: "John, for God's sake, you've got a lengthy congressional record. I understand you're afraid to defend it
, but it wouldn't hurt to mention it once in awhile."

If he did it, he might actually have some merit in his criticism of Bush's Iraq handling, taxes, health care, energy, education, etc.
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Old 08-26-04, 07:02 AM
  #230  
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If anybody wants to read the Kerry book "The New Soldier" (which has long been out of print), here's a link to where you can get it in a rather hard to follow .pdf form:

http://johnkerrythenewsoldier.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-26-04, 07:19 AM
  #231  
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Long article, bolded for quick summary:

With puffy eyes and a tired smile, veteran John E. O'Neill sank into a chair in his office conference room earlier this week looking more like an overworked lawyer than a political firebrand. But his comments left no doubt: O'Neill is helping run what is arguably the most aggressive outside campaign to defeat Senator John F. Kerry thus far in the presidential election cycle.

"He is unfit to be commander in chief," O'Neill, 58, said in an interview in his sleek downtown law firm.

Asked his opinion of the Democratic nominee, O'Neill paused, then turned his thoughts back to the day more than three decades ago when he first heard Kerry contend that war crimes were being committed in Vietnam.

"I resent deeply what he did in 1971," O'Neill said.

So outraged was O'Neill, who served in the same swift boat division as Kerry, that he put himself forward as the conservative rebuke to young antiwar activist, squaring off in public debates over the activities of US troops and the justness of the war itself.

Today, as a leader of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the group that accuses Kerry of lying about his war record, O'Neill has blossomed into the darling of the conservative movement again.

Democrats dismiss O'Neill as a "hatchet man" and point to his Texas Republican connections and to the backing he received from the Nixon administration three decades ago as evidence his motives are partisan. While O'Neill does have Republican connections and was considered for appointment to the federal bench by former President George H. W. Bush, the Houston lawyer said he has supported Democrats and independent politicians and is interested only in preventing Kerry from becoming president, not in President Bush's reelection.

A close Democratic associate in Houston, Gerry Birnberg, chairman of the Harris County Democratic Party, said he believes O'Neill when he says that he voted for Al Gore in 2000 -- despite O'Neill's social and professional relationships with leading Republican figures in Texas, including Houston real estate mogul Bob Perry, who has given $200,000 to the swift boat campaign.

"I do not personally believe that John O'Neill is an evil person who is doing this for political purposes, per se, though I think some of the other folks are," said Birnberg, who said he has known O'Neill for at least 20 years. "He's doing it out of a personal animus to Kerry that is the residual of the Vietnam debate."

O'Neill is coauthor of "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," a book that accuses Kerry of lying to obtain his medals.

All but one of Kerry's crewmates, however, are supportive of Kerry and have defended his actions in Vietnam; the other crewmate, Stephen Gardner, is a member of O'Neill's anti-Kerry group. In recent days, a number of sailors who served on boats alongside Kerry have announced publicly that they support Kerry's version of events.

William Rood, who served on a swift boat alongside Kerry on the day Kerry won the Silver Star, wrote in the Chicago Tribune last weekend that O'Neill and his group are telling "untrue stories."

Kerry campaign officials do not dispute that O'Neill harbors a grudge against the Democratic nominee, but they see the swift boat movement as much larger and more sinister.

"The more the facts come out about what O'Neill is doing, the more people realize this is just politics," said Stephanie Cutter, spokeswoman for the Kerry campaign. "It has nothing to do with what happened 30 years ago."

Yet, for O'Neill, there is reason to believe it does.

O'Neill did not know Kerry in Vietnam but followed Kerry as commander of Swift Boat No. 94. Like Kerry, he emerged a decorated hero, winning two Bronze Stars. A graduate of the Naval Academy and originally from San Antonio, O'Neill was furious over Kerry's postwar contention that soldiers were torturing civilians in Vietnam.

It was an appearance by O'Neill at a press conference that caught the attention of the Nixon White House, which was eager to silence the outspoken veteran from Massachusetts. In June of 1971, just two months after Kerry's high-profile testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, O'Neill was invited to meet with Nixon in the Oval Office. What was supposed to be a brief encounter evolved into an hourlong discussion about undermining Kerry, with Nixon encouraging O'Neill to stand firm in his cause.

Two weeks later, O'Neill squared off with Kerry on "The Dick Cavett Show."

Visibly angry at Kerry, O'Neill lit into his opponent.

"Mr. Kerry is the type of person who lives and survives only on war-weariness and fears of the American people," O'Neill said on the show. "This is the same little man who on nationwide television in April spoke of, quote, 'crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command,' who was quoted in a prominent news magazine in May as saying, 'War crimes in Vietnam are the rule, not the exception.' "

As the war and debate over the war waned, O'Neill faded into the private sector, moved to Houston, establishing a successful career in commercial litigation, and raised a family (his children are now 25 and 22). He built solid Republican credentials -- first as a speaker at the 1972 Republican nominating convention for Nixon, then in 1974 as a clerk for then-Associate Justice William H. Rehnquist of the Supreme Court.

O'Neill's extensive Republican connections have both fueled accusations that he is coordinating his efforts with the Bush administration and helped him build an infrastructure for the swift boat group. One of his law partners was Harold "Tex" Lezar, who ran unsuccessfully for lieutenant governor of Texas in 1994, the year George W. Bush was first elected governor; Lezar's widow, Merrie Spaeth, has given public relations advice to the veterans.

"I think you can tie it straight to the Republican machine," Representative Gene Green, the Democrat who represents Texas's 29th District in Houston, said of the swift boat group and O'Neill. Although Green said he and O'Neill never crossed paths when both practiced law in Houston, Green said his congressional opponent in 1992, a Republican, was supported by both O'Neill and close associates of the Bush family.

O'Neill is firm in his insistence that he is not doing the Bush administration's bidding; he said he voted for Ross Perot in 1992 and 1996, Gore in 2000, and had hoped to support John Edwards, Democrat of North Carolina, in the current race. At the same time, O'Neill said he rarely spoke about Kerry over the decades; his own children were not aware that he had been on "The Dick Cavett Show" until this year, he said.

Birnberg, his Democratic friend in Houston, disagrees with O'Neill over his activities to discredit Kerry and described their politics as "diametrically opposed, in some respects."

But as a friend, the Democratic county chairman said he does not question O'Neill's motives.

"He has told me on a couple of occasions that he believes George Bush is an empty suit who is not competent to be elected president," Birnberg said. It is just that O'Neill is "so hung up with John Kerry," he said.
Link

In other words: O'Neill thinks both are "Unfit for Command"
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Old 08-26-04, 07:23 AM
  #232  
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Originally posted by bfrank
Um it 2004................but I might as well add-

One volunteered to go

One used influence to avoid going

You be the judge
:sigh:

I've pretty much kept out of this one, but have to ask: Is that the only choice that matters? Can all other decisions made by these men since then be excused? Do not Senator Kerry's actions after he decided to volunteer have a place in the discussion? Why should we ignore and forget the other things he did and said?
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Old 08-26-04, 07:27 AM
  #233  
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Originally posted by Chew
This all keeps getting even more messy:


Link

He of course did ask about connections between the Kerry campaign and 527 attack groups also, didn't he? Surely Mr. Dingell want only the right thing to be done, and would in no manner behave in a purely partisan manner. You must have simply missed quoting that part of his complaint on accident, no?
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Old 08-26-04, 07:30 AM
  #234  
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Originally posted by classicman2
Of course one might add that was over 30 years ago, and that each has accululated a record since then that is of far far greater importance than what happened 30 years ago. One, I'll let you guess who it is, is running like a scared biddy from that record.

If you and the other staunch Kerry supporters are 'sick and tired' of the character assassination of this great American hero, I have a suggestion - you tell all of your friends to contact John and say tell him the following: "John, for God's sake, you've got a lengthy congressional record. I understand you're afraid to defend it
, but it wouldn't hurt to mention it once in awhile."

If he did it, he might actually have some merit in his criticism of Bush's Iraq handling, taxes, health care, energy, education, etc.
This is a fair and balanced post...in the Fox News sense of the phrase.

Bush sums up his entire youth (which extends to age 40 apparently) by saying "when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible" or something to that effect.

Meanwhile, Kerry was a public figure and has a public record. Maybe if I get bored later, I'll make you a timeline, but there will be a lot of years that read: Bush - Failed busines venture, drunk
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Old 08-26-04, 07:32 AM
  #235  
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Originally posted by Pharoh
:sigh:

I've pretty much kept out of this one, but have to ask: Is that the only choice that matters? Can all other decisions made by these men since then be excused? Do not Senator Kerry's actions after he decided to volunteer have a place in the discussion? Why should we ignore and forget the other things he did and said?
that would be great! we could compare them with Bush's "successes".

I'm convinced that if the guy's last name weren't Bush, he'd be living under a bringe in Abileen.
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Old 08-26-04, 07:36 AM
  #236  
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Originally posted by chess
that would be great! we could compare them with Bush's "successes".

I'm convinced that if the guy's last name weren't Bush, he'd be living under a bringe in Abileen.

That's fine, and you are of course entitled to that view. However, my point was simply that it is an incredibly silly argument to say that the discussion is over because Mr. Kerry volunteered. A good, even stellar, choice made does not exempt one from consequences over one's bad decisions. Determining whether they were bad or wrong decisions is the issue, not whether we can even have the discussion.
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Old 08-26-04, 07:50 AM
  #237  
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Originally posted by Pharoh
He of course did ask about connections between the Kerry campaign and 527 attack groups also, didn't he? Surely Mr. Dingell want only the right thing to be done, and would in no manner behave in a purely partisan manner. You must have simply missed quoting that part of his complaint on accident, no?
You know, I was looking for that quote myself but didn't see it.
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Old 08-26-04, 07:51 AM
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This is a fair and balanced post...in the Fox News sense of the phrase.

Bush sums up his entire youth (which extends to age 40 apparently) by saying "when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible" or something to that effect.

Meanwhile, Kerry was a public figure and has a public record. Maybe if I get bored later, I'll make you a timeline, but there will be a lot of years that read: Bush - Failed busines venture, drunk.
It's most assuredly fair. That's what galls you.

Bush has a 4-year record as President - a war president at that. That's what you should be concerned about. He is the incumbent, you know. Attack the record of that incumbency. Don't try and deflect the issue, as the ABBers have obviously done, by bringing up his NG stint, failed business ventures, drunk, whatever. Why don't you discuss his record as President. That's the office in question, btw.

I fully understand why you don't want to do it. You're deathly afraid that the congressional record of Kerry will be discussed. That you obviously don't want. That's what Kerry should be judged on - his record as a Senator, since he doesn't have a presidential record to run on.

Kerry and his handlers devised a campaign plan. Now that he is getting some heat for that plan, you and the other Kerry supporters want to cry 'foul' - it's not fair. He volunteered. Well, this is politics - if Kerry can't stand the heat.................
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Old 08-26-04, 07:51 AM
  #239  
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Originally posted by Chew
Long article, bolded for quick summary:


Link

In other words: O'Neill thinks both are "Unfit for Command"
So when should we expect "Unfit For Command Vol. 2" to be hitting the bookstores?

Based on his opinions of both men, we are all pretty much screwed either way.

If this story doesn't fade, and I hope it does, I wish they'd show the Cavett debate. #1) It would give people an idea of just how much this guy hates Kerry and has for a very long time and #2) I've really only seen one clip of it and I'd like to see how they both did.

In what I saw, O'Neill, clearly angry and already dressing like a Republican really goes after Kerry. Kerry sits there very calm and then gets in a really good zinger and the crowd goes nuts for Kerry. But I don't know how it went besides that clip.

Unless Kerry had shot me in the back or killed my family, I just can't see holding a grudge for over 30 years over a war that was hard enough on the country and the men who fought it back then, many of whom wish it never had happened in the first place and, I would imagine, are only being damaged by hearing this stuff about lying to get medals and how much bleeding is actually required for a purple heart.

O'Neill seems to had a very successful life too, so it boggles my mind how he can't let go of wanting to get back at Kerry.

I always wonder when people talk about Kerry planning all this ahead of time for the day he would eventually run for President, what would have happened to those plans had Kerry died? You can argue 4 months on the swift boat wasn't very long compared to others, but it was plenty long enough and dangerous enough to have been killed. Seems like a really risky plan on the off chance you'll ever be running for President. I wouldn't have spent 4 months on a swift boat if someone told me I'd get a billion dollars if I made it home in one piece.

Last edited by dolphinboy; 08-26-04 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 08-26-04, 08:16 AM
  #240  
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Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
I really don't give a rat's ass about 'my swifties', Kerry's service or Bush's. Fucking Vietnam isn't the issue for 2004. It's a shame for you guys that's all that Kerry is running on.
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Old 08-26-04, 08:35 AM
  #241  
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The best reason to vote Bush out of office is spelled I-R-A-Q. The Vietnam issue, Bush's dodging and Kerry participating makes their respective war experiences entirely relevant. Bush is asking young men to do what he wouldn't.
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Old 08-26-04, 08:42 AM
  #242  
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Originally posted by Mammal
The best reason to vote Bush out of office is spelled I-R-A-Q. The Vietnam issue, Bush's dodging and Kerry participating makes their respective war experiences entirely relevant. Bush is asking young men to do what he wouldn't.
Come on!!

There was a draft in the Vietnam era.

There's no draft now. They are all volunteers.

Therefore, your "Bush is asking youg men to do what he wouldn't" is not only meaningless - it's not relevant to the discussion.
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Old 08-26-04, 08:58 AM
  #243  
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Just like this is.

Originally posted by chess
Yay! Our lies are working! God bless America!

Republicans
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Old 08-26-04, 09:07 AM
  #244  
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Come on yourself. The kids whose tours are extended, and the reservists who are being called up ain't volunteering - for Iraq. They signed up to defend the USA, not to save face for the administration.
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Old 08-26-04, 09:16 AM
  #245  
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Originally posted by Mammal
Come on yourself. The kids whose tours are extended, and the reservists who are being called up ain't volunteering - for Iraq. They signed up to defend the USA, not to save face for the administration.
Volunteers or not, they are soldiers, and they are compelled to perform the orders that they are given to them. Those soldiers who are compalining about their long deployments should have read the fine print in their papers a little closer before signing them.


That's right kids: Say No to War.*






*unless a Democrat is president.
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Old 08-26-04, 09:21 AM
  #246  
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Amazing. If you don't like Kerry, I can respect that, but if you look back what Bush did for our country you must be really a die hard republican /christian to actually favor him:
- Iraq War; need I say more?
- Huge deficit and tax cuts for.... who?
- Only president in a while to lose jobs instead of to create jobs during his term
- Corruption all thoughout his administration (Haliburton, contracts in Iraq anyone or let's dismiss the Microsoft monopoly lawsuite; remember that one)?
- International reputation of the USA
- Bush capability to actually talk in public (isn't that embarrassing for a president)?

I'm not saying Clinton was a saint or that Kerry wouldn't have issues during his presidency (if any), but it's stunning how many republicans ignore all the things that went wrong during Bush's administration.

Anyway, let the flaming begin. Or better, why don't you, as a Bush voter, try to convince me to vote for Bush? Yes, I do favor Kerry but if McCain would run against Kerry I probably would favor McCain. So, why is Bush so great as a president?
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Old 08-26-04, 09:40 AM
  #247  
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- Iraq War; need I say more?
Freed about 25-30 million oppressed people. Got rid of a dictator that threatened to destabilize the Mid-East.
- Huge deficit and tax cuts for.... who?
The tax cuts went to everyone that actually paid taxes. They were needed because of the recession he inherited from the party president.
- Corruption all thoughout his administration (Haliburton, contracts in Iraq anyone or let's dismiss the Microsoft monopoly lawsuite; remember that one)?
Just because you say so doesn't mean so. Who has been convicted in this admin. of corruption?
- International reputation of the USA
People hated us before, they still hate us. This will remain the same no matter who is in charge. Instead of being a joke though for running away from Somalia and talking tough about terrorism and doing nothing, at least people fear and respect the military might of the US(and understand that it will be used).
- Bush capability to actually talk in public (isn't that embarrassing for a president)?
Kind of funny but people like him because he is plain spoken.

- Only president in a while to lose jobs instead of to create jobs during his term
He's made up a lot of ground in that department after inheriting a recession from his predecessor.


Not to mention: Rallying the country after the biggest attack on US soil in 60 years.
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Old 08-26-04, 09:47 AM
  #248  
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Originally posted by bhk
Not to mention: Rallying the country after the biggest attack on US soil in 60 years.
Even Al Gore could have rallied the country after 9/11!
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Old 08-26-04, 09:50 AM
  #249  
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Originally posted by Mammal
Come on yourself. The kids whose tours are extended, and the reservists who are being called up ain't volunteering - for Iraq. They signed up to defend the USA, not to save face for the administration.
Show me where in the contract that NG or reservist folks signed that they are guaranteed to stay stateside. They know fully well, and are so informed, that they may have to actually be in a combat area and might even have to engage in combat. They're volunteers. You seem to ignore this fact.

As far as extensions - red herring.

Extensions have occurred many times in the past.

Mammal, you're trying to hunt an old dog that won't hunt.

Now if you want to argue whether the Iraq War was justified - have at it. That's a reasonable argument that should take place. However, we're there, whether we should have been there or not, and that's a fact. It would be a geo-political disaster for us to cut and run.
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Old 08-26-04, 10:02 AM
  #250  
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Originally posted by bhk
Freed about 25-30 million oppressed people. Got rid of a dictator that threatened to destabilize the Mid-East.
Ok, so Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc. are next? Come 'on! The reason we went to war is WMD which weren't there. Even although the intelligence is to blame primarily for this, Bush didn't apologize, even worse he said that know what he knew now he still would have went to war (not mentioning he probably wouldn't have received approval from Congress)


The tax cuts went to everyone that actually paid taxes. They were needed because of the recession he inherited from the party president.
Just because you say so doesn't mean so. Who has been convicted in this admin. of corruption?

Clinton left the economy not in a recession state! There has been numerous of discussion about the benefits of the tax cuts (especially for the top 2%) so it's no use going into that here. Fact is that the economy is still sluggish, we actually lost jobs during his presidency and we have a huge deficit.

No one is convicted but tell me; do you think the post Iraq construction contracts where divided honestly for example?


People hated us before, they still hate us. This will remain the same no matter who is in charge. Instead of being a joke though for running away from Somalia and talking tough about terrorism and doing nothing, at least people fear and respect the military might of the US(and understand that it will be used).
Kind of funny but people like him because he is plain spoken.
'Fear and respect the military'? Oh man... Where do you think the root of 9/11 came from? Yes, from these views. We need to make sure the USA is respected in the world not for it's miltary but for what it is: a great democratic country that's willing to help other people.



He's made up a lot of ground in that department after inheriting a recession from his predecessor.
Once more, this is factual wrong!!!


Not to mention: Rallying the country after the biggest attack on US soil in 60 years.
And he abused it. Patriot act, Iraqi War.
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