Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk
Reload this Page >

Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Other Talk "Otterville" plus Religion/Politics

Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Old 08-12-04, 01:44 PM
  #1  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Calif. Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

18 minutes ago

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California's Supreme Court annulled more than 4,000 gay marriages in San Francisco on Thursday, finding the city acted improperly in granting marriage licenses earlier this year in defiance of state law.

The mayor of the liberal city ignited a passionate nationwide debate in February by allowing 4,037 same-sex couples to wed over a four-week period before the California high court halted them as it reviewed the city's actions.

A California law backed by a voter referendum defines marriage as a union of man and women, and polls show most Californians continue to oppose gay marriage.

"We agree with petitioners that local officials in San Francisco exceeded their authority by taking official action in violation of applicable statutory provisions," the court wrote.

The court ordered officials "to take all necessary remedial steps to undo the continuing effects of the officials' past unauthorized actions, including making appropriate corrections to all relevant official records and notifying all affected same-sex couples that the same-sex marriages authorized by the officials are void and of no legal effect."

In its decision, the court focused on whether the mayor had the authority to marry gays rather than the broader arguments of whether equal protection under the Constitution must include gay marriage. Briefs in a lawsuit raising the broader issue are expected before a lower court next month.
Sigh... I've been holding my breath all morning... Very expected, but still no fun... I was hoping they'd rule against Newsome without actually anulling the marriages, leaving them alone while the lower courts tussel the constitutional issues.

Nothing like having your kids made bastards by the State...

Last edited by adamblast; 08-12-04 at 01:46 PM.
Old 08-12-04, 01:46 PM
  #2  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Duran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 8,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by adamblast
Sigh... I've been holding my breath all morning... Very expected, but still no fun... I was hoping they'd rule against Newsome without actually anulling the marriages, letting them stand while the lower courts tussel the constitutional issues...
That would somewhat defeat the purpose of the ruling, though, wouldn't it? "You can't do that, but what's done is done!" would just legitimize this type of civil disobedience.
Old 08-12-04, 01:47 PM
  #3  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 22,995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's no question that Newsom over stepped his authority. Luckily, he was not arrested.
Old 08-12-04, 01:50 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by Duran
That would somewhat defeat the purpose of the ruling, though, wouldn't it? "You can't do that, but what's done is done!" would just legitimize this type of civil disobedience.
I would expect an opponent to think so, but since the courts avoided the constitutional issue of the marriages themselves, they had ample room to *not* annul. In nearly all states, "what's done is done" is exactly the legal position surrounding most suspect straight marriages, even when major errors or fraud occur.
Old 08-12-04, 01:54 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,206
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Duran is hardly an opponent of gay marriage.
Old 08-12-04, 01:56 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Duran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 8,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by adamblast
I would expect an opponent to think so, but since the courts avoided the constitutional issue of the marriages themselves, they had ample room to *not* annul. In nearly all states, "what's done is done" is exactly the legal position surrounding most suspect straight marriages, even when major errors or fraud occur.
I'm certainly not an opponent of gay marriage.

What examples do you have of marriages standing after fraud was uncovered?
Old 08-12-04, 01:59 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,206
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by Duran

What examples do you have of marriages standing after fraud was uncovered?


My question too. In cases of bigamy, one of the marriages is always voided.
Old 08-12-04, 02:13 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Triangle, NC, USA
Posts: 8,810
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If he didn't have the authority to perform them, they were actually never 'real' to begin with, were they?
I kinda see what you're saying with the 'whats done is done', but I think that thinking is applied more in cases where an error occurs. Not when 4000+ couples rush through the first four weeks to take advantage of a situation that will possibly be invalidated.
Old 08-12-04, 02:15 PM
  #9  
X
Administrator
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1987
Location: AA-
Posts: 10,765
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
What about all the children that have been conceived during these temporary marriages?
Old 08-12-04, 02:16 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

That would somewhat defeat the purpose of the ruling, though, wouldn't it? "You can't do that, but what's done is done!" would just legitimize this type of civil disobedience.

Originally posted by adamblast
I would expect an opponent to think so, but since the courts avoided the constitutional issue of the marriages themselves, they had ample room to *not* annul. In nearly all states, "what's done is done" is exactly the legal position surrounding most suspect straight marriages, even when major errors or fraud occur.

There, now it flows better.
Old 08-12-04, 02:17 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by X
What about all the children that have been conceived during these temporary marriages?
Someone needs a refresher course in gay sex.
Old 08-12-04, 02:18 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Nazgul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Jayhawk Central, Kansas
Posts: 7,125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by X
What about all the children that have been conceived during these temporary marriages?
David Crosby is only one man and he's getting older.
Old 08-12-04, 02:20 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by Duran
I'm certainly not an opponent of gay marriage.

What examples do you have of marriages standing after fraud was uncovered?
Wasn't trying to characterize your personal position, Duran.... As for the fraud point: I'm googling, but not finding the marriage law stuff I remember reading through and hearing about. Am I misremembering?

Too much immigration stuff if you look for "marriage fraud." And this was long before the current set of gay-rights issues. I was under the strong impression that, for instance, couples who lied about their age are often protected from being annulled against their wishes. I also remember reading of the occasional/odd same-sex marriage with legal standing, way back throughout the 70s thru 90s, in which half the couple basically lied about gender, but it was left standing as a "fait d'acomppli" (sp?) based on laws that made some kind of frauds irelevant...

Last edited by adamblast; 08-12-04 at 02:24 PM.
Old 08-12-04, 02:20 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by X
What about all the children that have been conceived during these temporary marriages?
Old 08-12-04, 02:21 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 8,572
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by kvrdave
Someone needs a refresher course in gay sex.
Well, if that isn't the pickup line of the century...
Old 08-12-04, 02:21 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 21,074
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
I'm glad that there's some sanity in the court system in California. I don't care if you're a judge or a mayor, you don't have the authority to unilaterally invent (or disregard) law.

Whether or not gay marraiges should or should not be legal isn't at question here. The question is whether or not the mayor overstepped his bounds as a member of the executive branch to create or annul law, powers reserved to the legislative and judicial branches respectively. The CA Supreme Court has ruled, correctly, that he did not, and that everything that happened as a result of the mayor's action are out of order.
Old 08-12-04, 02:25 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 22,118
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally posted by Myster X
It's no question that Newsom over stepped his authority. Luckily, he was not arrested.
Why should he have been arrested? There's nothing criminal in what he did. Wrong, per the ruling of the court, but nothing criminal...
Old 08-12-04, 02:30 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by LurkerDan
Why should he have been arrested? There's nothing criminal in what he did. Wrong, per the ruling of the court, but nothing criminal...
If you could get arrested for pandering to your political base, we'd have no politicians whatsoever!

Hmmm...
Old 08-12-04, 02:30 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Legend
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 21,074
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
Follow-up

Linky: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...riage_calif_10

The court did not resolve whether the California Constitution would permit a same-sex marriage, ruling instead on whether local officials could bypass state judicial and legislative branches.

Chief Justice Ronald George noted that Thursday's ruling doesn't address "the substantive legal rights of same sex couples. In actuality, the legal issue before us implicates the interest of all individuals in ensuring that public officials execute their official duties in a manner that respects the limits of the authorities granted to them as officeholders."

The California court sided with [State Attorney General] Lockyer's arguments, ruling that [Mayor] Newsom's actions would foment legal anarchy and sanction local officials to legislate state law from city halls or county government centers.
Old 08-12-04, 02:34 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Legend
 
kenbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 21,074
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 7 Posts
Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by adamblast
Nothing like having your kids made bastards by the State...
...actually, I would expect that kids are made bastards because of the decisions made by their parents.
Old 08-12-04, 02:39 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by kenbuzz
...actually, I would expect that kids are made bastards because of the decisions made by their parents.
Fine then. Nothing like having your kids re-bastardized by the State. After a brief period of unbastardization.
Old 08-12-04, 03:05 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Duran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 8,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Calif Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

Originally posted by adamblast
Wasn't trying to characterize your personal position, Duran.... As for the fraud point: I'm googling, but not finding the marriage law stuff I remember reading through and hearing about. Am I misremembering?

Too much immigration stuff if you look for "marriage fraud." And this was long before the current set of gay-rights issues. I was under the strong impression that, for instance, couples who lied about their age are often protected from being annulled against their wishes. I also remember reading of the occasional/odd same-sex marriage with legal standing, way back throughout the 70s thru 90s, in which half the couple basically lied about gender, but it was left standing as a "fait d'acomppli" (sp?) based on laws that made some kind of frauds irelevant...
My guess on the fraud thing is that their may be some loopholes depending on the current status of the marriage. For example, the marriage could have been illegal (due to age) when it happened, but at the time of the dispute resolution, they were of age. But since I'm assuming the gender of those participating in this hasn't changed in the last couple of months, their marriage would remain illegal until the law is either repealed or overturned.

I'm sure there is also provisions for non-material items. Similar to a traffic ticket - if the cop writes down that your car is brown, when it is actually rust or red, the ticket doesn't get dismissed. I think one might have difficulty arguing that the gender of those involved in the marriage in not material to the contract, as the people of California have explicitly passed a law that says that indeed it is important.

Again, I really don't care if homosexuals get married. If legal benefits are given to straight couples, they should be available to gay ones as well. I think government should get out of the marriage business altogether, but that's a separate discussion.
Old 08-12-04, 03:10 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Giantrobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South Bay
Posts: 57,613
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Well, if at first you don't suckseed, keeping on sucking til you do suckseed.


Seriously, I hope things go better in the fight for Gay marriage next round.
Old 08-12-04, 03:11 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lompoc, CA
Posts: 11,468
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
According to AP, the ruling against Newsome was unanimous, while the ruling to void the 4000+ marriages was 5-2...
Old 08-12-04, 03:14 PM
  #25  
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by X
What about all the children that have been conceived during these temporary marriages?
Right. Because we all know that's the primary reason to get married.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.