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'Mr. Jane Fonda'

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'Mr. Jane Fonda'

Old 08-08-04, 10:48 AM
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'Mr. Jane Fonda'

Vietnamese-Americans Back Bush

LOS ANGELES The John Kerry many Vietnamese-Americans remember is not the hero promoted by the Democratic Party, but the ex-soldier who returned to the United States to denounce the Vietnam War.

"His close association and anti-war activity make him known as Mr. Jane Fonda," said Frank Jao, who fought in the South Vietnamese army against the communist North.

Jao emigrated to California, and now is the Donald Trump of Orange County's Little Saigon, the largest Vietnamese community outside of Vietnam. In this area, 58 percent of the residents are registered Republicans.

While older Vietnamese-Americans may see Kerry as a turncoat, many younger voters are more open-minded, said Christian Collet, a pollster with Pacific Opinions Research.

"There is definitely a handful ... that wants to put war behind them and move forward with a constructive dialogue with Vietnam. And to that extent, John Kerry will get a handful of votes from those people," Collet said.

Another reason Vietnamese-Americans criticize Kerry is that he has worked to block a bill forcing communist Vietnam to clean up its human rights abuses. The bill passed 410 to 1 in the House, but Kerry blocked it in the Senate. Kerry has claimed that the best way to improve abuses in Vietnam is to engage the communists, not punish them.
____________

I think 'Mr. Jane Fonda' is a little harsh.

Fox News apparently didn't think so.
Old 08-08-04, 11:06 AM
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Re: 'Mr. Jane Fonda'

Originally posted by classicman2
Jao emigrated to California, and now is the Donald Trump of Orange County's Little Saigon
John Kerry, you no good. You fired!
Old 08-08-04, 11:24 AM
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Re: Re: 'Mr. Jane Fonda'

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
John Kerry, you no good. You fired!


Bush will still lose California.
Old 08-08-04, 11:41 AM
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People of my generation hear John Kerry called "Mr. Jane Fonda" amd can't help but think "When did John Kerry have a series of workout videos?"

Which raises another question -- if Fonda's actions during the Viet Nam era were so reprehensible, why were her workout videos so successful barely a decade later?
Old 08-08-04, 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by JasonF

Which raises another question -- if Fonda's actions during the Viet Nam era were so reprehensible, why were her workout videos so successful barely a decade later?
Obviously her actions were not so reprehensible to everyone. But you can't argue with the fact that millions of people found them to be reprehensible at the time.

In addition, time has a tendency to heal wounds - people forget.
Old 08-08-04, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
Obviously her actions were not so reprehensible to everyone. But you can't argue with the fact that millions of people found them to be reprehensible at the time.

In addition, time has a tendency to heal wounds - people forget.

Thankfully, some don't.
Old 08-08-04, 11:47 AM
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I prefer the term GI Gigolo better for Kerry.
Old 08-08-04, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
Obviously her actions were not so reprehensible to everyone. But you can't argue with the fact that millions of people found them to be reprehensible at the time.

In addition, time has a tendency to heal wounds - people forget.
True, but I guess my point is this: if the wounds Kerry caused when he came home from Viet Nam are sore, are they sore because they never healed, or are they sore because Kerry's political opponents are picking at them?
Old 08-08-04, 11:51 AM
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John Kerry - 'the most successful gigolo in America.'



My problem (it's only a very tiny one) with Kerry is that he has admitted that he watched the Geneva Convention being violated. I believe he even participated in the violation of the UCMJ. Question: Why didn't he report those violations? It was his duty to do so. Others faced prosecution for their activities in Vietnam - why not John Kerry?

This is the argument that a reasoned Bush supporter would make.

It's not necessarily the argument that I would make.
Old 08-08-04, 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by JasonF
True, but I guess my point is this: if the wounds Kerry caused when he came home from Viet Nam are sore, are they sore because they never healed, or are they sore because Kerry's political opponents are picking at them?

I think it is safe and fair to claim both.
Old 08-08-04, 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by classicman2
It was his duty to do so. Others faced prosecution for their activities in Vietnam - why not John Kerry?

This is the argument that a reasoned Bush supporter would make.

It's not necessarily the argument that I would make.
I would guess because he 'turned state's evidence' and pointed the finger at others during his Senate testimony.
Old 08-08-04, 11:59 AM
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Then the question that the staunch Bush supporter should ask of the American People: "Is a violator of the Geneva Convention and the Uniform Code of Military Justice fit to be President?"

Does John Kerry's activities as a gigolo remind anyone of Richard III?
Old 08-08-04, 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by Pharoh
Thankfully, some don't.
You can't still be mad about MSU knocking OSU out of title contention at the Horseshoe in 1998 can you?


seriously though...how this can possibly matter to anyone but Kerry-haters is beyond me....

hmm....this "hater" thing works pretty well!!
Old 08-08-04, 01:01 PM
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But I've heard a number of ABB folks be very critical of Bush because of his ANG activities. A number of them said it was an indication of character that Kerry chose to serve and Bush did not - meaning that Kerry possessed a better character than Bush, I suppose.

Does Kerry's violation of the Geneva Convention and UCMJ during his service in Vietnam indicate anything about Kerry's character?

I don't know. I'm just asking questions.
Old 08-08-04, 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by JasonF
True, but I guess my point is this: if the wounds Kerry caused when he came home from Viet Nam are sore, are they sore because they never healed, or are they sore because Kerry's political opponents are picking at them?
The doctor who examined those wounds says they were not sore and therefore Kerry DOES NOT DESERVE THE 12 EXTRA PURPLE HEARTS THAT HE GOT FOR THEM.
Old 08-08-04, 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by classicman2
But I've heard a number of ABB folks be very critical of Bush because of his ANG activities. A number of them said it was an indication of character that Kerry chose to serve and Bush did not - meaning that Kerry possessed a better character than Bush, I suppose.

Does Kerry's violation of the Geneva Convention and UCMJ during his service in Vietnam indicate anything about Kerry's character?

I don't know. I'm just asking questions.
well, for my money, the Bush ANG issue isn't about what actually happened then beyond illustrating that he is obviously now, and has continuously lied about them. I don't judge anyone for not going to vietnam, I would have done whatever I could to stay out too....But the fact that he continues to lie about it, and that he projects himself as some hero of military might makes me, well, kind of ill.

Kerry, otoh, went to Vietnam and fought, bravely and by most accounts, heroically. He did so in a conflict that many felt was unjustified, and was messed up all over the place....I would hazard a guess that more soldiers in battle committed such acts than didn't. The fact that he began to see that and and had the guts to admit that what was happening was wrong, if anything, speaks to Kerry's convictions and strong character. I don't think you can judge anyone for having participated in the war, it was far beyond their control. Thus, I don't judge anyone for fighting then, nor do i for avoiding combat. I do, however, consider it telling that one cadidate owns up to his actions, while the other refuses to on any level.
Old 08-08-04, 01:36 PM
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I did participate.

I do believe I'm in a position to judge it.

If Kerry saw Vietnamese being murdered, and he didn't do something to stop it or report it, he violated his oath as officer - he violated the Geneva Convention. He violated the UCMJ.

The fact that he owned up (after the fact) in no way, IMO, absolves him of the action.

Some would argue that going AWOL (technically he didn't) in the ANG in Alabama is not as serious as participating and watching murders in Vietnam and not reporting them. Maybe others have a different view.

BTW: I don't necessarily consider it telling that someone owns up to his actions. There may be many reasons why he would do so - probably his discovering of his 'good character' is far far down the list of those reasons.

Now if you are willing to admit that neither Bush's actions in the ANG & Kerry's questionable actions in Vietnam don't really matter to the voter - then I would agree with you.
Old 08-08-04, 01:39 PM
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Could one make the argument that Kerry is just as culpable as Lt. Wm. Caley?

The difference is - Caley had to pay the price for his violations of the Geneva Convention & the UCMJ.

Kerry did not.
Old 08-08-04, 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by brizz
You can't still be mad about MSU knocking OSU out of title contention at the Horseshoe in 1998 can you?


seriously though...how this can possibly matter to anyone but Kerry-haters is beyond me....

hmm....this "hater" thing works pretty well!!


Worst. Loss. Ever!
(Or awfully damn_close to it.)




On topic, I agree that this isn't much of an issue, though I still stand by my disdain for fonda.
Old 08-08-04, 03:55 PM
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Look at this way - if Kerry is elected President, that will be 3 in a row who have been law violators - 1 perjurer and constitution violator, 1 druggie, & 1 murderer. I'll bet Washington, Adams, & Jefferson would indeed envy that trio.
Old 08-08-04, 06:25 PM
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Re: 'Mr. Jane Fonda'

Originally posted by classicman2
Vietnamese-Americans Back Bush
<---not this Vietnamese-American.
Old 08-08-04, 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by classicman2

My problem (it's only a very tiny one) with Kerry is that he has admitted that he watched the Geneva Convention being violated. I believe he even participated in the violation of the UCMJ. Question: Why didn't he report those violations? It was his duty to do so. Others faced prosecution for their activities in Vietnam - why not John Kerry?
But did he observe or participate in violations? I thought he later (fairly recently in fact) admitted that those statements before Congress may have been a bit embellished in youthful exuberance. Of course, if that is true, it makes him a perjurer, and I am not sure which is worse. But I am hopelessly confused by conflicting stories and have no clue what "today's truth" might be.
Old 08-08-04, 06:40 PM
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Did he receive immunity when he testified before the Senate committee?
Old 08-08-04, 06:57 PM
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If you're asking me, I don't know. I don't think any prosecutions of anybody ever came of his testimony. I think it was more used for "anti-war" sentiment, but again, it was a long time ago and I'm not sure.

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