What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
05-12-09, 11:50 PM
#101
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I also have to agree with nothingfails statement about music as actual product. While there is a generation of people who grew up with their music digitized, and getting it for free off the internet with no regard at all for packaging of any sort, there are also plenty of people like me that want the whole deal, as it was originally designed. No matter how many MP3 players and digital devices I will go through and use over the years, I will always want an original source copy the way it was intended to be - with artwork, liner notes, lyrics, photos...etc. I'm a collector who enjoys his collection being something that's actually tangible. Otherwise, what's the point?
Regarding 1980's (at least 1986-1990) era vinyl, a lot of the records were slimmer and flimsier I believe to ween vinyl fanatics off wax and into CD's. I know on a few albums towards the end of vinyls mainstream run like Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation and Depeche Mode's Violator (but Violator is now restored to it's full length with the recent 180 gram reissue) that some tracks would actually be edited on the vinyl to get people to buy CD's to get the uncut versions of Personal Jesus or Rhythm Nation. Funnier thing is that now they're making records in 180-200 gram pressings to sell to people who are disenfranchised and bored of CD's. Very circular how that happened.
05-13-09, 10:06 AM
#102
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
What about music collectors who love the whole idea of music being a product?(especially in this digital age where people are bypassing tangible products in favor of downloads) Plus lets face it, vinyl looks a lot nicer on a shelf than cd's do if you have a big bookshelf with shelves large enough to hold vinyl (mine are just lengthwise enough that you can put records in it). CD's are so cold while there's a warmth to vinyl that no other format can replicate, you really feel like you "own" the album when you have it on vinyl. People talk about vinyl being scratchy and the sort but that totally depends on the care you take of it. My dad gave me his copy of "Rubber Soul" that he had well over 30 years ago (it wasn't a first pressing, but at least 30-35 years old) and the record remains scratchless and skipless. If you take care of your vinyl, it can last forever.
05-13-09, 10:38 AM
#103
Senior Member
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
You misunderstood me. I know the difference it makes in product quality. I've been buying vinyl albums since they were the dominant music format. My question was, is that a factor as to why the labels are sometimes charging more for it. There doesn't seem to be a straight answer.
vinyl vs cd now makes no difference because both come from the same digital source. If you want real vinyl go with older albums- 50s, 60s, 70s which do sound better often because they're the original mixes, not remixed cd versions. I hate fake stereo cds of stuff originally recorded in mono for instance. In the 80s, vinyl was still a big format but have you ever inspected the quality of the vinyl? It's often really thin and flimsy and the cds were superior. I don't see much of a point to modern vinyl now besides dj's who want to scratch them for their hippity hop.
05-13-09, 11:04 AM
#104
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
While for new albums the original source for each format is digital, that doesn't mean the end products have identical masters. For example, CD's audio is 2-channel signed 16-bit PCM sampled at 44.1kHz. However, the original mix may have been recorded at 24-bit up to a 192kHz sampling rate. For the CD, they have to downsample the original source, while for vinyl they can use the original higher-quality source for the master.
05-13-09, 11:49 AM
#105
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
While for new albums the original source for each format is digital, that doesn't mean the end products have identical masters. For example, CD's audio is 2-channel signed 16-bit PCM sampled at 44.1kHz. However, the original mix may have been recorded at 24-bit up to a 192kHz sampling rate. For the CD, they have to downsample the original source, while for vinyl they can use the original higher-quality source for the master.
Again virtually undetectable except for the highest quality audio equipment.
05-13-09, 12:26 PM
#106
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I'm not going to debate whether higher-quality audio is "detectable", since that's a subjective determination and is going to vary wildly from person-to-person and between different equipment.
All I was pointing out is that it's possible for the vinyl copy of a recent album to be mastered from a higher-quality source than the CD, even if the original source was digital.
05-13-09, 01:32 PM
#107
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
Besides, for many (including myself), audio quality is only one of many reasons to listen to vinyl.
05-13-09, 02:03 PM
#108
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I will never again "love" Vinyl at $24 and up. 
I will admit I do miss the "punch" of drums and bass on Vinyl but hey, the past is the past.
I will admit I do miss the "punch" of drums and bass on Vinyl but hey, the past is the past.
05-13-09, 03:02 PM
#109
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
to me I think it's worth it to look for old vinyl like I mentioned (50s-70s) but beyond that I'm not so much into reissues or new releases on it. I just don't see the point so much because it's pressed from the same digital source as the cd. As a collector it does look nicer (larger cover art) but I think at this point I've just become happy enough with listening to music instead of just being a collector of it. By all means though I'm not trying to bash newly pressed vinyl, I wish more people would be aware it's even still being made.
05-13-09, 05:29 PM
#110
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
Nice article on The Pet Shop Boys and the demand their new album has on vinyl and also Chris Lowe's two cents on the vinyl renaissance
http://www.songpeople.co.uk/pet-shop...in-high-demand
http://www.songpeople.co.uk/pet-shop...in-high-demand
Pet Shop Boys vinyl in high demand
CDs sales have famously taken every plunge imaginable lately, and with peer-to-peer networks and pirating sites constantly popping up, they aren’t the only music format that isn’t making much money for record companies.
However – many music fans are taking their interests back to the old school, and investing in records. In the States, record sales have gone up almost double time, even if consumers these days are more inclined to store music on an iPod than anywhere else.
Sky.com reports that record companies have begun ringing in profits not just by selling vinyl to nostalgic graying rock fans, but to members of a more youthful generation as well. Chris Carmino, manager of the legendary Amoeba records in Hollywood told Sky, “People are realizing that vinyl is the collectors’ format. CDs are becoming just vessels of information, something to throw into your computer for the purpose of getting that music into your iPod.”
Of course, CD sales, however increasingly lethargic, are still leading over record sales at the moment. In the UK vinyl sales haven’t moved much, but there has been an increasing demand for limited edition vinyl singles. Record stores like the Vinyl Factory, west of London, and Phonica in the West End report that the limited edition releases like that of the Pet Shop Boys’ latest synth pop masterpiece, 'Yes', have seen spiking sales and increasing consumer interest.
Though Phonica has begun selling t-shirts that read “Vinyl Kills the MP3 Industry,” this is still a bit of an exaggeration. But collectors and artist alike continue to revel in the sound quality of a vinyl record.
“Music sounds better on vinyl,” Chris Lowe told Sky. “It’s just a fact isn’t it? And also it’s the process of getting it out, putting it on.”
CDs sales have famously taken every plunge imaginable lately, and with peer-to-peer networks and pirating sites constantly popping up, they aren’t the only music format that isn’t making much money for record companies.
However – many music fans are taking their interests back to the old school, and investing in records. In the States, record sales have gone up almost double time, even if consumers these days are more inclined to store music on an iPod than anywhere else.
Sky.com reports that record companies have begun ringing in profits not just by selling vinyl to nostalgic graying rock fans, but to members of a more youthful generation as well. Chris Carmino, manager of the legendary Amoeba records in Hollywood told Sky, “People are realizing that vinyl is the collectors’ format. CDs are becoming just vessels of information, something to throw into your computer for the purpose of getting that music into your iPod.”
Of course, CD sales, however increasingly lethargic, are still leading over record sales at the moment. In the UK vinyl sales haven’t moved much, but there has been an increasing demand for limited edition vinyl singles. Record stores like the Vinyl Factory, west of London, and Phonica in the West End report that the limited edition releases like that of the Pet Shop Boys’ latest synth pop masterpiece, 'Yes', have seen spiking sales and increasing consumer interest.
Though Phonica has begun selling t-shirts that read “Vinyl Kills the MP3 Industry,” this is still a bit of an exaggeration. But collectors and artist alike continue to revel in the sound quality of a vinyl record.
“Music sounds better on vinyl,” Chris Lowe told Sky. “It’s just a fact isn’t it? And also it’s the process of getting it out, putting it on.”
05-13-09, 05:45 PM
#111
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
While for new albums the original source for each format is digital, that doesn't mean the end products have identical masters. For example, CD's audio is 2-channel signed 16-bit PCM sampled at 44.1kHz. However, the original mix may have been recorded at 24-bit up to a 192kHz sampling rate. For the CD, they have to downsample the original source, while for vinyl they can use the original higher-quality source for the master.
If an LP and a CD come from the same source with the same mix, there's no way the LP can have better sound quality than a CD within the range of human hearing. It's objectively impossible, and I defy anyone to find a double-blind test that says otherwise.
05-13-09, 06:06 PM
#112
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I suggest taking the time to read the whole article, but for those who don't want to, here are the author's conclusions:
It appears that the vinylphile claims are not as outrageous as they seem: LPs do have a usable dynamic range far greater than the measured dynamic range would suggest, and LPs consistently have higher relative dynamics over digital formats. But it is also true that LPs have higher distortion levels which translate to ultrasonic frequency harmonics.
The question is: is the higher relative dynamics of LPs an indication of higher accuracy, or are LPs exaggerating transients and dynamics? I'm not sure, and I would welcome comments.
If LPs have higher distortion and are exaggerating dynamics, it may explain why the apparent "benefits" of LPs translate even into LP recordings, and potentially explain why LPs of digital recordings sound better than their CD equivalents.
The question is: is the higher relative dynamics of LPs an indication of higher accuracy, or are LPs exaggerating transients and dynamics? I'm not sure, and I would welcome comments.
If LPs have higher distortion and are exaggerating dynamics, it may explain why the apparent "benefits" of LPs translate even into LP recordings, and potentially explain why LPs of digital recordings sound better than their CD equivalents.
05-13-09, 06:50 PM
#113
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
This article takes a pretty in-depth look at the real-world dynamic range of LP vs. CD. It's primarily waveform analysis, rather than double-blind tests, but I think someone looking for objectivity will find it fascinating.
05-14-09, 03:09 AM
#114
DVD Talk Hero
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
And not even that, stuff post '94, too. Stuff you can buy on CD used for a couple of dollars, things you wouldn't even expect to fetch good money - like Stone Temple Pilots - Tiny Music... and the first two Third Eye Blind albums, for example - I've seen used (not even sealed, or near mint condition) vinyl copies go for a minimum of $60, or more (?!?). Outrageous!
About seven or eight years ago, I went on a jag of updating a lot of my old metal cassettes to CDs.
I discovered that a few of these CDs were out of print and fetching some pretty crazy prices. One example is Vio-Lence's "Eternal Nightmare" CD. You couldn't find one eBay for under $100. But I was able to find a mint condition vinyl copy for four bucks.
Last edited by Josh-da-man; 05-14-09 at 03:11 AM.
05-14-09, 03:27 AM
#115
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
My experience has been the opposite.
About seven or eight years ago, I went on a jag of updating a lot of my metal old cassettes to CDs.
I discovered that a few of these CDs were out of print and fetching some pretty crazy prices. One example is Vio-Lence's "Eternal Nightmare" CD. You couldn't find one eBay for under $100. But I was able to find a mint condition vinyl copy for four bucks.
About seven or eight years ago, I went on a jag of updating a lot of my metal old cassettes to CDs.
I discovered that a few of these CDs were out of print and fetching some pretty crazy prices. One example is Vio-Lence's "Eternal Nightmare" CD. You couldn't find one eBay for under $100. But I was able to find a mint condition vinyl copy for four bucks.
What I was pointing out, is that now, ironically, almost the opposite is happening for albums that were primarily released on CD, but only in extremely limited runs on vinyl. You can walk into almost and store that sells used CD's (or even on E-bay) and pick almost any alt-rock band from the 90's for $5 or less. Sometimes even $2. But try finding vinyl copies - for the ones that were actually made, that is - of those same albums for less than $40. The asking and selling price tends to lean upwards to $100, or more. It's insanity, but also the law of supply and demand.
05-14-09, 04:35 AM
#116
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
What I was pointing out, is that now, ironically, almost the opposite is happening for albums that were primarily released on CD, but only in extremely limited runs on vinyl. You can walk into almost and store that sells used CD's (or even on E-bay) and pick almost any alt-rock band from the 90's for $5 or less. Sometimes even $2. But try finding vinyl copies - for the ones that were actually made, that is - of those same albums for less than $40. The asking and selling price tends to lean upwards to $100, or more. It's insanity, but also the law of supply and demand.
05-14-09, 09:49 AM
#117
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I'm surprised more of the 90's alt-rock stuff hasn't been reissued on vinyl. I know Pearl Jam's Ten and Smashing Pumpkins' Siamese Dream both sold very well on vinyl once they were brought back on the market, and I bet the upcoming Nirvana repressings are going to sell well too.
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
05-14-09, 10:06 AM
#118
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
Actually, Ten was never originally sold on vinyl when it was released (there were only a couple very limited promotional pressings)....the label wouldn't let them release it on vinyl at the time, much to the band's chagrin....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
Ten did come out on vinyl as a German release well before it finally got re-issued here. Don't recall when, exactly, but I know I was seeing import copies at least a few years back.
05-14-09, 11:29 AM
#119
Senior Member
Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
Actually, Ten was never originally sold on vinyl when it was released (there were only a couple very limited promotional pressings)....the label wouldn't let them release it on vinyl at the time, much to the band's chagrin....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
05-14-09, 02:18 PM
#120
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
Actually, Ten was never originally sold on vinyl when it was released (there were only a couple very limited promotional pressings)....the label wouldn't let them release it on vinyl at the time, much to the band's chagrin....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
Once they became one of the biggest bands in the world, they got their vinyl release for Vs. (a week early, before the CD/cassette even)....they released Vitalogy two weeks earlier on vinyl as well....
05-15-09, 12:49 AM
#121
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I was speaking only about the US....Ten was released overseas on vinyl, as others have mentioned, but not in America....Jeff Ament specifically mentioned this and the band's irritation at the time of not being able to issue it on that format in a recent interview about the new reissue....
05-15-09, 01:05 AM
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
I was speaking only about the US....Ten was released overseas on vinyl, as others have mentioned, but not in America....Jeff Ament specifically mentioned this and the band's irritation at the time of not being able to issue it on that format in a recent interview about the new reissue....
05-15-09, 02:02 AM
#123
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
05-15-09, 07:48 AM
#124
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
few years ago i read about how rich people were buying $15000 LP players to go with nice stereos to play vinyl.
supposedly because it's analog you get a smoother sound
supposedly because it's analog you get a smoother sound
05-15-09, 08:50 AM
#125
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Re: What's The Deal With Best Buy's New Love of Vinyl?
The other thing I don't like is the greater chance of the sleeve getting damaged in the mail; I recently ordered an LP and CD from a European label, and the packing materials got somewhat mashed up en route, leaving me with perfectly fine vinyl, but a bent up sleeve. I'm not worried about the collectible aspect, but I try to keep all my CDs and LPs in pristine shape and it's aggravating to have stuff so beat up.