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The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Old 07-31-21, 11:51 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Listening to the first two Forbidden albums: "Forbidden Evil" and "Twisted Into Form".

They were another act in the crowded flood of thrash bands in the late 1980s, though were able to get signed to Combat Records. Their drummer Paul Bostaph later played with Slayer.
Old 07-31-21, 07:25 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Both of those Forbidden albums are pretty great. They both got a lot of play from me back in the day.
Old 07-31-21, 09:30 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

For those like me who miss Nevermore, there is Portland, OR's Silver Talon.

Old 08-01-21, 11:20 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Speaking of Nevermore, how often did they play Sanctuary songs in their live shows ?

If I had to guess, "Battle Angels" (from Refuge Denied) would be a likely song to play.
Old 08-03-21, 10:21 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Both of those Forbidden albums are pretty great. They both got a lot of play from me back in the day.
Only the first album got a lot of replay value for me in those days. At the time, I never picked up the second album "Twisted Into Form". By then, I wasn't really listening to heavier stuff as much anymore.

In a similar parallel, I listened to Vio-Lence's first album "Eternal Nightmare" quite a bit when it was first released. Though I never bothered picking up the second album "Oppressing The Masses".

In those days circa 1988, I thought "Eternal Nightmare" was one of the better produced thrash albums at the time. Slightly earlier or around that time in early->mid 1988, most thrash albums had a crappy sounding production such as: Testament "The New Order", Megadeth "So Far So Good ... So What", Overkill "Taking Over" and "Under The Influence", Kreator "Terrible Certainty" and "Out of the Dark", Coroner "RIP" and "Punishement For Decadence", etc ...


Many years later I eventually picked up these second albums, when I found them in local $2 dump bins. Vio-lence's "Oppressing The Masses" was rather forgettable, while Forbidden sounded decent. Though in the end, these were not albums I listened to much since then.
Old 08-03-21, 12:11 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by morriscroy
IIRC, most of the Century Media licensed Combat stuff was never released on cd in america at the time in 1999.

The only american versions of CenturyMedia/Combat re-releases I remember seeing in those days, were:

Crumbsuckers - Life of Dreams
Dark Angel - Darkness Descends
Possessed - Seven Churches
Possessed - Beyond The Gates


In contrast, the german versions of the CenturyMedia/Combat re-releases had a large part of the combat catalog. No idea why this happened, other than maybe perhaps rights/licensing type issues in america.
Finally found a discogs page which cataloged the american re-releases at the time.

https://www.discogs.com/label/466299...sters-Of-Metal

Looking more closely at my cd copies of Forbidden "Twisted Into Form" and Exodus "Pleasures of the Flesh", they appear to be consistent with these 1999 re-releases and not the original Combat releases.

The german centurymedia version of "Twisted Into Form" had two extra live tracks which were not on the american 1999 re-release. (These two live tracks appear to be from the "Ultimate Revenge 2" Combat live album from 1989).


https://www.discogs.com/Various-Ulti...elease/1784599

Old 08-03-21, 12:20 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

For that matter, my cd copies of Dark Angel "Darkness Descends" and Possessed "Beyond The Gates" also both appear to be the 1999 american re-released versions. They were just the tracks from the original albums, with nothing extra.

The german centurymedia 1999 re-release of "Darkness Descends" had two extra live tracks, which the latter appears to be from the "Ultimate Revenge 2" Combat live album from 1989.

The german centurymedia 1999 re-release of "Beyond The Gates" had the "Eyes of Horror" ep as extra tracks.
Old 08-05-21, 12:09 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
I never really had a problem with Metoyer-produced albums, but looking over his body of work on wikipedia, it seems like a lot of bands didn't really come into their own until they moved on to different producers (Slayer, Trouble, Corrosion of Conformity).
I noticed this ^ too while recently listening to Lizzy Borden. The first few records seemed rather "generic" to my ears nowadays. (I haven't listened to them in long time). They were typical Slagel produced metalblade productions from the mid 1980s. (Various engineers like Bill Metoyer, Randy Burns, Jim Faraci, etc ...).

Lizzy Borden seem to hit their stride with "Visual Lies" which was produced by Max Norman (ie. the producer/engineer on the first few Ozzy Osbourne albums, etc ...). I'm guessing Max Norman put a lot of effort into getting the song writing arrangements to be top notch, which was somewhat lacking in the previous albums. "Master of Disguise" also sounded like a lot more effort was put into the songwriting and vocal arrangements.
Old 08-07-21, 03:43 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Listening to more 1980s era Metal Blade releases, I get the impression Slagel + Metoyer largely left most bands to their own devices. So other than having a minimally decent sound production, the only other likely big function performed by Metoyer + Slagel was vetoing anything that sounded really horrible. They probably didn't do much about song arrangements.

A lot of that Metoyer/Slagel produced stuff sounded rather average to below average, when it came to the songwriting arrangements. It greatly reflected on whether the original bands had any proficient songwriters, such as Fates Warning, Slayer, Sacred Reich, and maybe Trouble or DRI. Most of the other Metoyer/Slagel produced stuff like Omen, Tyrant, early Lizzy Borden, Bitch, Cryptic Slaughter, Hirax, Pandemonium, Mentors, etc ... seemed to be somewhat deficient or outright lacking in the songwriting department.

In the case of Flotsam & Jetsam's first album, I'm guessing Jason Newsted was the primary songwriter. After that, it seemed like the songwriting was highly variable and possibly reflected on the band not always having a consistently proficient songwriter in the band.
Old 08-07-21, 07:37 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by morriscroy
It greatly reflected on whether the original bands had any proficient songwriters, such as Fates Warning, Slayer, Sacred Reich, and maybe Trouble or DRI. Most of the other Metoyer/Slagel produced stuff like Omen, Tyrant, early Lizzy Borden, Bitch, Cryptic Slaughter, Hirax, Pandemonium
Yeah, in the 1980s Metal Blade was always home to a lot of generic metal. For every Slayer, it seemed like they had five or six Omens.

To be brutally honest, a lot of Metal Blade releases sound like demos.

Mentors... seemed to be somewhat deficient or outright lacking in the songwriting department.
I was going to say that "Donkey Dick" is a pretty great song, but it was from a post-Metal Blade album.
Old 08-08-21, 08:25 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Yeah, in the 1980s Metal Blade was always home to a lot of generic metal. For every Slayer, it seemed like they had five or six Omens.

To be brutally honest, a lot of Metal Blade releases sound like demos.
Combat Record's batting average was just as bad too. Their only acts which seemed to have proficient songwriters, were Megadeth, Savatage, and maybe Nuclear Assault.

Exodus seemed like they were initially riding on the coattails of the Kirk Hammet legacy. I thought "Bonded By Blood" sounded decent, while subsequent albums never lived up to it and got worse and worse with each release.


There was one unreleased Exodus song which sounded like the bridge segment after the guitar solo in "Creeping Death", while the song "Impaler" sounded like the main riff from "Trapped Under Ice".

https://www.loudersound.com/features...hind-the-album
Old 08-08-21, 09:19 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

In contrast, Megaforce had a much higher batting average than Metal Blade and Combat.

In hindsight it appears Jon Zazula seemed to put a lot of effort into quality, and not just quantity. Though whether this was the case during Megaforce's early years circa 1982-1983, is not entirely clear. Either that, or Zazula got extremely lucky early on with Metallica, Anthrax, Raven, and slightly later with Overkill, Testament, etc ....

Last edited by morriscroy; 08-08-21 at 10:39 AM.
Old 08-08-21, 11:13 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

I think Jonny Z definitely had a good "ear" for bands.

Combat had quite a bit of crap, but they also had Megadeth (though "Killing is My Business" is actually pretty terrible; Megadeth probably has one biggest leap in quality between first and second albums in music history), Exodus (I like the first three albums, though "Pleasures of the Flesh" is a step down from "Bonded by Blood" and "Fabulous Disaster" is quite good), Dark Angel, Possessed, and Death.

I think that one thing about a lot of mediocre bands and bad production in the mid-80s comes down to the fact that the speed/thrash genre was still in its infancy, and nobody really knew what made a good band, or how to produce the albums, and you had these indie labels started signing up as many bands as they could find. A few would be good, most would be forgettable.

By the late 80s, you started seeing bands coming out like Sepultura and Kreator -- sort of following in the Metallica/Slayer mold -- that seemed to be more fully formed, with better musicianship, better production, and better songwriting, right out of the gate. (Granted, both bands are rooted in the mid-80s, but they're both post-Metallica/Slayer acts, and you can sort of tell that "Ride the Lightning" and "Reign in Blood" sort of provided a roadmap for extreme metal, and by the late 80s, with "Beneath the Remains," and "Extreme Aggression," they had really hit their strides.)
Old 08-08-21, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Combat had quite a bit of crap, but they also had Megadeth (though "Killing is My Business" is actually pretty terrible; Megadeth probably has one biggest leap in quality between first and second albums in music history), Exodus (I like the first three albums, though "Pleasures of the Flesh" is a step down from "Bonded by Blood" and "Fabulous Disaster" is quite good), Dark Angel, Possessed, and Death.
Nowadays the only Exodus album I still listen to, is "Another Lesson In Violence". Basically more than a decade later past their peak, where they recorded a live 1997 concert with Paul Baloff, which had almost the entire "Bonded By Blood" album and the better tracks from "Pleasures of the Flesh".

For Dark Angel, I still listen to "Darkness Descends" but not any of their other albums. Similar story with Death "Scream Bloody Gore", where I find the subsequent Death / Control Denied / Schuldiner albums to be largely unlistenable. I still listen to Possessed "Seven Churches" and "Beyond The Gates", but not "Eyes of Horror".

Though I would not consider Dark Angel, Death, nor Possessed to be "top notch" songwriting. For example, I thought Blind Illusion "The Sane Asylum" had much better songwriting.
Old 08-08-21, 12:06 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
I think that one thing about a lot of mediocre bands and bad production in the mid-80s comes down to the fact that the speed/thrash genre was still in its infancy, and nobody really knew what made a good band, or how to produce the albums, and you had these indie labels started signing up as many bands as they could find. A few would be good, most would be forgettable.

By the late 80s, you started seeing bands coming out like Sepultura and Kreator -- sort of following in the Metallica/Slayer mold -- that seemed to be more fully formed, with better musicianship, better production, and better songwriting, right out of the gate. (Granted, both bands are rooted in the mid-80s, but they're both post-Metallica/Slayer acts, and you can sort of tell that "Ride the Lightning" and "Reign in Blood" sort of provided a roadmap for extreme metal, and by the late 80s, with "Beneath the Remains," and "Extreme Aggression," they had really hit their strides.)

I think the first speed/thrash album which showed how to do a DIY / self-produced effort with professional quality in both the sound and songwriting, was Sodom's "Persecution Mania".

They showed everybody that this could be done in early 1988, without having to hire an expensive professional record producer.
Old 08-08-21, 03:08 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Combat had quite a bit of crap, but they also had Megadeth (though "Killing is My Business" is actually pretty terrible; Megadeth probably has one biggest leap in quality between first and second albums in music history)
By an odd coincidence, I thought Combat had quite a few original bands like this ^ where the first albums were mediocre or outright crap, while the respective second albums were excellent or even a "masterpiece". Stuff like:

Helstar
1st - Burning Star
2nd - Remnants of War

Dark Angel
1st - We Have Arrived
2nd - Darkness Descends

Abattoir
1st - Vicious Attack
2nd - The Only Safe Place

Crumbsuckers
1st - Life of Dreams
2nd - Beast On My Back

Zoetrope
1st - Amnesty
2nd - A Life of Crime


The only pattern I can discern, is that the second albums were coincidentally produced by Randy Burns (except for Abattoir), while the first albums were produced by folks who either had short-lived production credentials and/or were not really "metal" type producers/engineers. The latter might have been the in-house engineer / producer at a particular "local" studio in town.


Today I still listen to the Helstar, Dark Angel, and Abattoir second albums quite a lot.
Old 08-08-21, 06:56 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Most thrash bands refined their sounds quite a bit between their first and second (sometimes third) albums.

Kill'em All - Ride the Lightning
Killing is My Business - Peace Sells
Show No Mercy - Hell Awaits - Reign in Blood
Fistful of Metal - Spreading the Disease
The Legacy - The New Order
Feel the Fire - Taking Over - Under the Influence

Even the "Big Four" started out with what were, pretty generic thrash albums... loud, fast, aggressive... and quickly refined their sound and found their own voice. I'd say that Slayer didn't really hit that mark until "Reign in Blood," though "Hell Awaits" does show some progression from "Show No Mercy."

Exodus seems to be sort of a special case, where they peaked on their first album, dropped a bit on their second, and recovered some on their third. Maybe I would have liked "Pleasures of the Flesh" more if they used the original cover.

Old 08-09-21, 12:57 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by morriscroy
There was one unreleased Exodus song which sounded like the bridge segment after the guitar solo in "Creeping Death", while the song "Impaler" sounded like the main riff from "Trapped Under Ice".
As both those Exodus songs came before the Metallica ones, I would say the opposite. Kirk Hammett took those riffs with him when he left Exodus.
Old 08-09-21, 01:41 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Phodg
As both those Exodus songs came before the Metallica ones, I would say the opposite. Kirk Hammett took those riffs with him when he left Exodus.
That was my first thought when I first picked up that 1997 "Another Lesson In Violence" live album back in the late 1990s. It seemed odd that one of the live tracks sounded like "Trapped Under Ice", which I never heard of "Impaler" previously. (I never heard the old exodus demo tapes back then).

Old 08-09-21, 01:59 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
I think Jonny Z definitely had a good "ear" for bands.
Found a Rods interview, where Carl Canedy briefly discussed how he first got into producing records. (Scroll down half way down).

https://www.metal-rules.com/2014/10/...rry-bordonaro/


It turned out JonnyZ knew Carl had extensive studio production experience and could likely complete an album on a tight budget. So basically Cannedy was the "adult in the room" who kept the studio sessions running in an orderly manner, for some early Megaforce titles and a few early Combat ones.

Overkill - Feel The Fire
Blue Cheer - The Beast Is Back
Anthrax - Fistful of Metal, Armed and Dangerous, Spreading the Disease
Exciter - Violence and Force
TT Quick - debut

Helstar - Burning Star
Thrasher - Burning At The Speed of Light
Possessed - Beyond The Gates
The Rods - Live
The Rods - Let Them Eat Metal

https://www.discogs.com/artist/25166...r_anv=0&page=1

Last edited by morriscroy; 08-09-21 at 04:56 PM.
Old 08-09-21, 03:07 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
'd say that Slayer didn't really hit that mark until "Reign in Blood," though "Hell Awaits" does show some progression from "Show No Mercy."
I thought Slayer first hit their mark with the "Haunting the Chapel" ep and the "Live Undead" picture disc. The latter showed how songs from Show No Mercy could be redone live in a more "Venom-like" manner.

I thought "Show No Mercy" sounded more like a traditional NWOBHM production, with a slightly faster tempo. Nothing like "Venom".
Old 08-09-21, 04:59 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Allegedly Carl Canedy was able to produce the fifth Rods album on a budget of $10000 in 1984.

Just For The Record - The RODS "Let Them Eat Metal"
Old 08-10-21, 09:02 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Picked up two cds today as "impulse buys", when I passed by a local indie record store on my way home. A cd remaster of Kreator's "Pleasure To Kill" which was re-released in 2017, and the Iron Maiden "Rock In Rio" cd which appears to be the european re-release from 2020 (according to the upc code and back cover scans on discogs).

Just finished listening to both cds on the stereo with my full attention.

The Kreator remaster sounds quite a lot better than my old original Combat Records cd version of "Pleasure To Kill + Flag of Hate" from the mid-late 1980s. (I don't have any other cd versions). One thing which was really noticable on the remastered tracks, was that bass was a lot clearer and more upfront. On my old vinyl and Combat cd copies of "Pleasure To Kill", I barely even noticed there was any bass. The three tracks from the "Flag of Hate" ep were a lot more clearer sounding, and not as "screechy" sounding like on the original Combat vinyl and cd versions.

The Iron Maiden "Rock In Rio" cd remaster, appears to be using the remastered versions originally made for iTunes back in 2015. These remastered tracks sound less "muddy" than the original 2002 version. Back in 2002 I thought the original cd version was kinda "weak" sounding, and largely dismissed it at the time. Fast forward to the present day, this remaster is definitely worth a second listening on my standalone stereo.
Old 08-15-21, 07:12 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by morriscroy
The only pattern I can discern, is that the second albums were coincidentally produced by Randy Burns (except for Abattoir), while the first albums were produced by folks who either had short-lived production credentials and/or were not really "metal" type producers/engineers. The latter might have been the in-house engineer / producer at a particular "local" studio in town.
Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
Yeah, in the 1980s Metal Blade was always home to a lot of generic metal. For every Slayer, it seemed like they had five or six Omens.

To be brutally honest, a lot of Metal Blade releases sound like demos.

I looked through the metal blade catalog on discogs and other pages.

The stuff released by the Los Angeles area located bands, appears to be consistent with Metoyer being the "local in-house go to guy" that Slagel sent them to. This would explain why there was so much mediocre Metoyer produced/engineered stuff from that time.


There were a few Metoyer produce bands based further away such as:

northern california - DRI, Sentinel Beast
arizona - Sacred Reich, Flotsam & Jetsam
texas - Helstar

There were not many bands from cross country produced by Metoyer, which would have likely required additional expenses of housing the bands (ie. motel, trailer rv, etc ....). The few were Fates Warning (hartford, ct) and Trouble (chicago, il) in the early days, which I'm guessing Slagel wanted close hands length oversight during the recording / production stages.


Otherwise most other metal blade bands far away from southern california, appeared to just record at a local studio in their own hometowns. For example:

Nasty Savage - Morrisound (florida)
Hallows Eve - atlanta, ga
Juggernaut - texas
Anvil - toronto, canada
Liege Lord - stamford, ct
Goo Goo Dolls - buffalo, ny
Intruder - nashville, tn

No need to pay for lodging costs, when the band members can just drive home after the daily studio sessions.

Last edited by morriscroy; 08-15-21 at 07:25 PM.
Old 08-16-21, 05:28 PM
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Re: The Official METAL! Thread- Metalcore, Thrash, Progressive, Death, and MORE

Originally Posted by morriscroy
I noticed this ^ too while recently listening to Lizzy Borden. The first few records seemed rather "generic" to my ears nowadays. (I haven't listened to them in long time). They were typical Slagel produced metalblade productions from the mid 1980s. (Various engineers like Bill Metoyer, Randy Burns, Jim Faraci, etc ...).

Lizzy Borden seem to hit their stride with "Visual Lies" which was produced by Max Norman (ie. the producer/engineer on the first few Ozzy Osbourne albums, etc ...). I'm guessing Max Norman put a lot of effort into getting the song writing arrangements to be top notch, which was somewhat lacking in the previous albums. "Master of Disguise" also sounded like a lot more effort was put into the songwriting and vocal arrangements.
Trying to catch up on all the posts, but I have to say that Lizzy Borden's first full length, Love You To Pieces, is still my favorite of their releases. It still stands up IMO, and is solid from beginning to end, love that album!

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