Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Yeah, they raked in the Platinum prices after pushing secondary prices up due to their restrictions.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Hey, they've spent billions of dollars fighting scalpers....gotta make that money back somewhere.

(This is mostly sarcasm, but they obviously have to make money back on the services they provide. Should a band selling tickets below market value mean Ticketmaster should make their fees lower as well? $23/ticket in fees for arena shows is incredibly low compared to other comparable shows)

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Robert Smith frigging RULES!

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Hadn't been to a show or concert in a while. Bought some tickets today for an event that my son wants to go. The tickets are sold through Ticketmaster. Paid $40 for each ticket and $27 in fees for each one of them. And $25 more for parking. It's fucking ridiculous and a complete abuse of power.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Rapino joins Bob Lefsetz' podcast for a deep dive into the ticketing industry. Really in depth overview into the breakdown of fees, how they get distributed, and the negotiations between artists, venues, and Ticketmaster. He also brought up the issues with The Cure. According to Rapino, The Cure did not put anything in their contract about fees being $10 or whatever it ended up being. Ticketmaster absorbed the majority of the expense of the refunds, with a few venues agreeing to split the cost.

It wasn't but about 10 minutes in that he warns that they're not even close to reaching peak pricing on platinum tickets.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3lL...OaoKznS4g&nd=1

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Yeah, it's insane. That is somehow even worse than what I just paid.
Thought I was getting an amazing deal for center floor seats, row M for Elvis Costello. Then got to check-out
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/dvdtalk...908855f70f.png

I have no idea how they can get away with charging fees like this. It's so shameless. And it turns surprisingly reasonable ticket prices into something significantly less affordable.
That said, while 20% charge is insane, charging over 50% of the ticket price that you had to pay is actually obscene. No excuse for that.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Bought 4 danzig tickets Wednesday through AXS. 80$ fee and 5 bucks for a handling fee even though they are will call.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

What's a fair price then? According to LYV's 2022 10-K, they sold 270MM tickets and had operating expenses of almost $12.5B. That breaks down to $46 of expenses per ticket sold.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

How is that possible? Where could those costs add up to $12.5B? They don't have tons of employees or physical locations. Unless it's related to costs associated with Covid cancellations in 2021, which is what I expect.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

2019 was $8.5B on 220MM tickets sold for $38 per ticket.

2022 headcount was 12,800 FT and 29,000 Seasonal and PT

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Is that just Ticketmaster, or does that include all of Live Nation? Because obviously they need lots of employees and have expenses to run their facilities. I can't imagine those numbers are just CS agents and Server techs. I am aware a lot of fees go to the venues, but it's disingenuous to lump those expenses in with the cost of actually providing a website and ticket distribution services because as I've stated, those costs are pretty minimal.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

That’s for the entire corporation. It’s hard to break everything down by segment because the ticketing business is where their profit is. They lost $160MM on $13.5B in revenue from their concert division and they make that up on the ticketing side. Ticketing expense looks like around $1.5B and netted $600MM in profit.

Heres another way to look at it. They had $700MM in profit on 270MM tickets. So they’re making about $2.70 from every ticket that’s sold.
And then they have interest and income tax to pay on that. That’s not a whole lot of wiggle room in price before they’re losing money.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

And that's the truth right there. They charge whatever they want for ticketing services because that's where they make their money. They already charge a "facilities fee", but they supplement that with whatever ticketing fees they think they can get away with.
The cost of operating Live Nation is irrelevant to me. That can be reflected in the cost of the concert ticket at a venue owned by Live Nation. The Ticketmaster fees are supposed to be for the convenience of providing tickets, not to help boost their bottom line after their probably-should-have-been-illegal monopoly merger.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

That money goes to the artist, not to Live Nation

So Ticketmaster isn’t supposed to make money?

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Honestly, if they can't make money without charging ridiculous fees, no, they shouldn't. It means their business model is flawed.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

TIcketmaster is supposed to make some money off of providing the servers and websites needed to distribute tickets in a quick and equitable fashion, and to provide customer service after the tickets are sold. I think 10% of the ticket price is very reasonable and should easily cover those costs. Ticketmaster probably agrees because when I sell my Raiders tickets, they take a 10% cut of my selling price.
But if the service fees are uncapped, then there's nothing stopping Ticketmaster from charging whatever they want -- so that's what they do. If Live Nation is not profitable for them, they shouldn't have merged with them; it's not incumbent on me to subsidize their business, which was formed not to be beneficial to the consumer or to the artists, but rather to control both the venues and the means of ticket distribution in those venues under one exclusive umbrella.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

They also charge a fee when the tickets sell so they get another 10-20% from the buyers. All reselling sites do that.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Can you explain what exactly makes them "ridiculous"? I've posted the numbers and they actually have rather slim margins. I'm guessing you would have the same outrage for any other company you do business with that broke out their charges by CoGS and the company's markup. Can you imagine ordering a pizza from Papa Johns and the receipt said "Cost of Ingredients: $1.99, Papa Johns Convenience Fee $12.00" or if your internet provider broke out "Cost of Services $9.99, Comcast Convenience Fee $65.00"?

They're a tech services company that operates an incredibly robust website that handles $17B worth of volume a year. I think you're severely underestimating the complexity involved. Joe Berchtold testified before congress that they've spent over a Billion dollars in recent years just to fight automation tools. As someone else mentioned, the 10% commission you pay would be equivalent to a fee Ticketmaster charges the artists to sell their tickets on their service. They still charge purchase fees to the buyer of your tickets. Due to the markups/markdowns that brokers apply to exchanges, It's very difficult to find apples to apples comparisons of fees, but Ticketmaster's aren't at all out of line with all the other marketplaces in the industry.

Nothing stopping them....other than what people are willing to pay. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy concert tickets, and judging by the demand in the industry right now there's no shortage of people willing to pay the fees.

So if instead of a $20 Convenience Fee that goes to Ticketmaster, you'd be ok with a $10 Facility Fee that goes to Live Nation and a $10 convenience Fee that goes to Ticketmaster? It all rolls up the same. It's not any different than if Coca Cola bought an aluminum can processor and operated that entity at break even. Would you tell Coca Cola they should only charge for the soda that you're drinking and not the cost of processing the can? There's plenty of companies out there that operate their verticals like this.

The merger should have never been allowed and Live Nation has been violating the consent decree pretty much from day one. Live Nation was struggling mightily due to the economic climate at the time and that probably had a lot to do with why it was approved. I'd love to see them broken up and Rapino thrown in jail. It's been a scummy industry from the very beginning and they're engaged in tons of shady practices, but I've read their financial statements and listened to their earnings calls and I really don't see anything unreasonable about the service fees. Could they trim the organization and cut out some fat...sure, but it's not going to cut down the fees the way people expect. Instead, Live Nation is happy for people to complain about the fees because it takes the focus off the real issues like the way they hold back tickets to manipulate supply and demand, then incorporate dynamic pricing after they've artificially raised prices. Trying to push through non transferable ticket legislation which is just one monopolistic practice to force customers into their ecosystem. Or the way they operate the VF program and determine account rankings for queue positions so it's not them giving certain high volume buyers favorable positions. Or how they don't even need to worry about making sure they have the infrastructure in place for high volume sales because consumers have no choice but to buy from them....who cares if the website crashes, we're still selling every Taylor Swift ticket. Or how bad the seat selection process actually is when you have thousands of customers all competing over the same seats on a map.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

It's interesting how the prices of tickets have just exploded over the past couple of decades. I think that's the issue people have, moreso than the Ticketmaster fees. At the end of the day, it's an aggregate cost.

I mean, shit, when I was back in high school a concert ticket might cost twenty-five dollars. Thirty if they were pushing it. And it was general admission, so the seating and floor was first come, first served.

Now the ticket for a same or similar act the same or similar venue is going to be over one hundred dollars. Then you're going to pay an eighty dollar "convenience fee" on top of that. And a "venue fee" of ten dollars. Then you're going to pay twenty or thirty dollars for parking. (Back three decades ago, parking was usually free, or had a one or two dollar fee tacked onto the ticket.) And instead of that twenty-five dollar ticket, it turns into a two hundred fifty dollar ticket. Or a three or four or five hundred dollar ticket if you want a decent seat or the general admission floor. And if you want to buy beer, it's going to be six to ten dollars for a bottle poured into a plastic cup.

It seems to me like there's a lot of profiteering going on between the promoters, the ticket brokers, the artists, and the venues. Somehow, thirty years ago, they could put on concerts and still make money without charging all of these ridiculous fees and parking charges and exorbitant concession prices.

And I also remember when ticket scalping was illegal. Now Ticketmaster, the venues, and the artists are doing it.

Seeing the fees costs and charges broken down and itemized presents a psychological barrier. You might accept a five hundred dollar ticket, but when you see a two hundred collar ticket with three hundred dollars worth of fees and charges tacked on, it just pisses people off.

John Galt is right with his Papa John's analogy. It's like going to a fast food place and paying three dollars for a large fountain drink. People will do that. But it's not broken down likeBUT... people are willing to pay these prices and jump through these hurdles to go to concerts, especially for A-list acts. I wouldn't pay a thousand dollars to see Taylor Swift or Beyonce. I wouldn't even go if it was free. If someone paid me a thousand dollars I'd probably go. And enough of people obviously will pay that. They might bitch and moan, but they'll still give up their credit card numbers.

I worry more about the increasing costs of things we actually need like health care, rent, real estate, utilities, and court/legal fees (I've known quite a few people who had to spend tens of thousands of dollars to fight off bullshit lawsuits and criminal charges). Going to concerts is a luxury for most people. You need a roof over your head and insulin. You don't need to see Beyonce shake her ass on a stage.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

A big difference between now and thirty years ago is that performer no long tour to support an album. The album use to be where the money was. The economics have flipped now. Touring is now where the money is. I don't have numbers but I'm guessing performers are getting a much higher percentage of tour revenue than three decades ago.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

I'm not a big concert-goer but I see a lot of theater. If I want to deal with convenience but excessive Ticketmaster fees (and yes, tacking on 1/4 of a ticket price or more for "processing" is excessive), I'll use them. Otherwise I'll go straight to the box office and get the ticket without any of those fees (and yet, those tickets have to be "processed" too...interesting).

The biggest issue for me with Ticketmaster is that "1 billion to fight automation". I will admit I don't know anything about the technical side of ticket sales, but I can't believe there isn't some CAPTCHA/account verification/number of allowed ticket purchases combination that couldn't severely limit the bots. My guess is that there is at least a part of their business that loves to see the frenzy.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

The simple fact is this : The best argument against Ticketmaster pleading expenses is that it costs the same to distribute a $50 nosebleed seat as it does a $700 floor seat, so why charge 10 times more in service fees for the better seat? That's like a Shell station charging 10 times for gas if you put it in a Lamborghini than in a Hyundai. I will defend Ticketmaster when someone like John Oliver points out correctly that Ticketmaster can charge 50% or more in fees for a $25 lawn seat at a kids concert. I do understand that their service has some costs. But it's a pricing structure with a floor but no ceiling, and that is clearly not fair and just opportunistic.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

I go to small venues now.
One of my favorite guitarists of all time (Marc Ford) just had a show at a local club.
$20 tix, and I stood maybe 5 feet from the stage.
Or even slightly bigger venues for other bands I love (like Manic Street Preachers w/ Suede at House of Blues, or Rival Sons at The Fonda, or Paul Weller), all around $30 to $40, and smaller venues where I can scootch to the stage. Sure, these aren't huge acts, but I don't like huge acts, so my concert going is far more enjoyable and affordable!

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Also wanted to point out a dirty little secret... a lot of these "service fees" go straight to the artists, and if they really didn't like it, they could tell ticketmaster not to charge them. Thing is, they love that money, and TM doesn't care if they look like the bad guy, so they take the PR hit, while fans keep thinking their favorite artist is the good guy.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Not according to Live Nation...

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

That's proving my point! They're fine being the "greedy bad guys" and will even cop to it, even though most artists are just as greedy.
You can't put a face to TM like you can to an artist.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

I bought my wife VIP tickets to Old Dominion and a parking pass. Face value for these was $550, total. Ended up being $667 after fees. Fucking highway robbery.

USD $8.05 (Order Processing Fee)USD $5.00 (Facility Charge) x 2USD $45.70 (Service Fee) x 2

All that BS is shown at the end, of course. I am all in favor of this new Biden plan and their agreement for them to show all fees up front.

But that still doesn't make up for the fact that the fees are bullshit as it is. It doesn't and shouldn't cost $117 to sell me tickets. And that is charged many thousands of times over for each show.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Yep - I'd love to see how it costs $117 to reserve a seat and generate an email confirmation.

I think artists should be paid for their art. I don't think Live Nation and Ticketmaster deserve nearly as much as they are currently taking for some clerical work.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

True, artists should be compensated, but up to what point?
So if that extra bit is actually going to the artist, then TM isn't really making that much extra for their clerical work, are they?

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

The bigger acts that can command high prices are playing just for the 1%'ers. The average person is priced out.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Most of those expensive tours you hear about (Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Springsteen) have cheap tickets available. The good seats are expensive, but the narrative that you offer isn't really true. Besides, I've always felt if a good ticket for a hot act can go for a fortune on the secondary market, I'd rather the artist see that money than just the scalpers.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

I don't know how the markets are outside of California, but when the total price of a ticket comes out to almost/over $100 for one, that's way too much. I can understand if it's a festival (maybe), but not for standing room or GA admission. The last show I went to pre pandemic was Alice Cooper at The Greek and those tickets were gotten off Groupon for less than $60 each and we were in the middle of the venue just behind Orchestra. It was great. I assume post pandemic pricing kicked in and it's been high ever since bands came back. Hell, I didn't even catch Rammstein when they played at the Coliseum (3 nights in a row) because each ticket no matter where you were at was insanely priced. Good thing I had already seen them twice in my life.

If this is the new fad of hosing down the people for these tickets I will be just fine never going to another big or legacy show again. As people have said, there's no shortage of new acts playing small venues, etc., at semi-reasonable prices.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Like everything, tickets are a case of supply and demand. If the supply of available tickets exceeds demand, then discounts like that Groupon are common, moving unsold tickets at a discount is much better than having unsold seats at the time of the show. When the demand far exceeds the supply, you get a skyrocketing secondary market. I don't think $100 for a high-demand show is much at all, TBH. A Broadway show costs $150 a ticket in the lower level. An NBA ticket can be much more than that face value. Doesn't mean there aren't cheaper alternatives like regional theater and G-League games, if that's what you want -- but clearly it's not the same thing, or exactly the same experience, and should be priced a lot less.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Well, I don't expect a ticket that's over $100 per person will make much of a difference to a high earning individual like yourself. It will to the rest of the people going, which if they don't have the money, will most likely put it on a credit card, or have to get a shitty nosebleed seat. An overpriced shitty nosebleed seat that they'll have to videotape the performance off of the big screen.

Personally for me, when I actually took notice of the increase was when Ghost started headlining stadiums. They played at The Forum a couple of years ago and for 1 single GA (standing room only) ticket, was over $100 for the ticket. I had already seen the band 4 times before at The Fonda, Palladium, The Mayan, and The Wiltern. They finally made it big and the ticket prices skyrocketed. I'm no math expert but when the price of a ticket jumps 3X I'm tapping out.

Concerts and live entertainment have become an inaccessible luxury now. I will be trying to catch a World Cup game when it comes back to North America, but that's a once in a lifetime thing.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

And the opposite of that would be to charge a flat fee for all tickets. Using your 10% proposal, the $50 ticket would have a $5 fee and the $700 ticket would include $70 in fees. If we were to just split that down the middle, there would be two $37.50 fees. Is that fair to the buyer of the $50 ticket to pay another 75% in fees? Should the buyer of the $700 help subsidize some of the costs for buyers of cheaper tickets? There's obviously no simple solution that everyone is going to think is fair.

It's also interesting how focused everyone (the general public, not necessarily this board) is in using the ticket price as the base variable on which we calculate fees. The ticket prices are set by the artists (more specifically, the promoter) and if someone like The Cure wants to sell $200 tickets for $20, why should their fans get a break on fees? Should Drake fans who are paying market price for their tickets help subsidize the cost of The Cure fans' tickets?

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Sure, if you're looking at the marginal cost of each additional ticket sold, it's credit card processing fees plus a few pennies. But the tens of billions of dollars that first ticket costs to produce is really going to drain somebody's pockets.



Operating a billion dollar e-commerce site that does millions of transactions a week is hardly clerical work.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

This is usually just Live Nation spin, and they love to promote this soundbite every time there's an uproar over the latest ticket crisis. Reserving one row at the very top of the stadium for $49 tickets and then having everything else $99 and above hardly counts as having cheap tickets available in my book.

Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
 

Or people can just not go. But there's a culture of FOMO that's taken over in recent years and it's largely behind the increase in ticket prices. Like Decker pointed out, it's all about supply and demand and when a fan is willing to go at any price, prices are just going to keep pushing higher.