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Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

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Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Old 11-12-22, 09:25 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

So, I guess no other nation attempted to advance on Wakanda for their vibranium during the five years where the also had no protector and, assumingly, minus half of their population?
But I suppose that can be explained away by the fact that said other nations were dealing with the fallout of the snap themselves...stil...

And, yeah, I agree with the poster who wonders who this teenage (college student?) suddenly has the ability to create Stark-like suits.

As I posted in one of the She-Hulk threads (when asking how all of these supers are starting to show up all of a sudden), while I am enjoying this MARVEL phase it doesn't seem as thought out as the previous one and there are more head-scratching choices.
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Old 11-13-22, 10:25 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Solid three stars from me. Movie had great visuals, fine acting, and a pretty good story. However, they could have easily trimmed about 20-25 minutes from this and it still been in acceptable form. Ross and Valentina were superfluous to this one and should have been omitted. Also, there were many scenes so poorly lit that I couldn't see what was going on a lot of the time. I know this could have been the theater, but I've read similar statements from other reviews.
Old 11-13-22, 10:26 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Really enjoyed this. Didnít notice the runtime at all because I love this world and these characters. Iím actually surprised to hear how long it was - I didnít even check my watch.
Same here... was a bit surprised to find out the runtime.

I thought it was really well done. Going to have to catch it again while it's in the theater.
Old 11-13-22, 04:55 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

I just came back from watching it. I enjoyed it more than the first. Yeah, the plot is meh (especially everything revolving around Namor) but the action was fun (if a tad too tightly framed and shaky at times), the acting was solid, the humor worked, the production design was lovely (even if some of the sets looked TV show fake), the score was much improved over that of the first, and I really enjoyed the licensed music (minus the Rihanna song which was meh). Overall, I'd say it's a 3.5 - 4 out of 5. And I will be getting this one on disc.
Old 11-13-22, 06:27 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by nickdawgy View Post
There was a mid credits scene. Did you miss that?

We loved it though. The biggest cheers were the logo for Chadwick, the first appearance of the ďiron manĒ suit, the whole Black Panther sequence, and definitely the biggest was Michael B Jordan showing up.
Yes I did, as I googled to see if the scenes were worth waiting for.
Old 11-14-22, 02:15 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Enjoyed this, though not as much as the first one. I actually liked Ironheart and how she grounded a lot of elements and her adoration of Wakanda was a nice contrast to Killmonger's disgust with the country. It was neat that her suit was more anime-influenced than Iron Man. I liked that the plot is not so standard and I wish more of these movies would be more character-driven beyond the standard Hero's Journey or family stuff (I know that's present here, but it feels more realistic and there's politics to balance it out).

Quick counterpoints to complaints made in this thread:
1. Shuri's impalement wound gets the suit to heal around it, presumably this also acts to stop the bleeding to an extent, just like Iron Man's little fire extinguisher thing after Thanos impales him.
2. Speaking of Iron Man, is it really any less realistic that a child prodigy could build an Iron Man suit with the resources of Wakanda (or a prototype with her MIT connections) than a businessman (who at that point in the film actually hadn't been shown to have an engineering background) building one in a cave? Or that that same businessman is not only capable of making a robotic suit, but ALSO inventing true AI, nano technology, and became an astrophysicist literally overnight? Or that a high schooler solved an AI issue from another universe in his apartment in a couple hours?
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Old 11-14-22, 02:34 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by IBJoel View Post
2. Speaking of Iron Man, is it really any less realistic that a child prodigy could build an Iron Man suit with the resources of Wakanda (or a prototype with her MIT connections) than a businessman (who at that point in the film actually hadn't been shown to have an engineering background) building one in a cave? Or that that same businessman is not only capable of making a robotic suit, but ALSO inventing true AI, nano technology, and became an astrophysicist literally overnight? Or that a high schooler solved an AI issue from another universe in his apartment in a couple hours?
Once Peter got access to Stark Tech on the jet in "Far from Home", he created a very technical suit as well. The implication being that this tech is so advanced that you don't have to be able to weld or create it yourself. Kind of like Photoshop - I can't freehand 1/1000th of what I can create in Photoshop.

It's an odd complaint - child geniuses are pretty prominent in comic books.
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Old 11-14-22, 05:07 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Can someone show me a map of where Namor lived in relation to where Wakanda is?
Old 11-14-22, 05:42 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by windom View Post
Can someone show me a map of where Namor lived in relation to where Wakanda is?
Namor lives somewhere around here:

Spoiler:







Wakanda is somewhere around here:

Spoiler:




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Old 11-14-22, 06:02 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this one yet. I saw it at the drive-in Friday. I guess the first thing I would say is that I'm not as down on this as many are. My first reaction when the movie ended was that it probably was the second best Marvel film post-Infinity War. I realize that might be faint praise, but my appreciation has waned the more I have thought about the film.

There were a couple things that I found cringe. The explanation for how Namor got his name being one. I also wasn't too sure about the explanation for them being ocean dwellers. I just don't think some of the changes completely landed - or maybe I was just too distracted by them. I should point out that I managed to avoid pretty much all plot spoilers, so I had no idea Namor was even going to be in the film. Maybe that was part of the reason I got distracted by differences from comics. However, I also think that by not keeping Atlantis, you have already added more things that need to be explained, more exposition needed for this film, which already had a lot it needed to do. If Namor had simply introduced himself as the ruler of Atlantis, there is so much that the audience could already infer about that. This is one of those times when I think things were made more complicated than they needed to be. Plus, the origin of Atlantis could have been saved for another movie when there was more time. Not to mention all of the Valentina stuff. Keep all the unnecessary stuff out and focus on the main story.

But let's be honest here. Was there any way that this film was going to be able to meet expectations? There's a part of me that thinks the movie shouldn't have been made under the tragic set of circumstances, but I know Boseman wouldn't have wanted Black Panther to die with him. I don't know. I feel like I need a second viewing before I decide how I feel about the movie as a whole.
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Old 11-14-22, 10:47 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by clckworang View Post
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this one yet. I saw it at the drive-in Friday. I guess the first thing I would say is that I'm not as down on this as many are. My first reaction when the movie ended was that it probably was the second best Marvel film post-Infinity War. I realize that might be faint praise, but my appreciation has waned the more I have thought about the film.

There were a couple things that I found cringe. The explanation for how Namor got his name being one. I also wasn't too sure about the explanation for them being ocean dwellers. I just don't think some of the changes completely landed - or maybe I was just too distracted by them. I should point out that I managed to avoid pretty much all plot spoilers, so I had no idea Namor was even going to be in the film. Maybe that was part of the reason I got distracted by differences from comics. However, I also think that by not keeping Atlantis, you have already added more things that need to be explained, more exposition needed for this film, which already had a lot it needed to do. If Namor had simply introduced himself as the ruler of Atlantis, there is so much that the audience could already infer about that. This is one of those times when I think things were made more complicated than they needed to be. Plus, the origin of Atlantis could have been saved for another movie when there was more time. Not to mention all of the Valentina stuff. Keep all the unnecessary stuff out and focus on the main story.

But let's be honest here. Was there any way that this film was going to be able to meet expectations? There's a part of me that thinks the movie shouldn't have been made under the tragic set of circumstances, but I know Boseman wouldn't have wanted Black Panther to die with him. I don't know. I feel like I need a second viewing before I decide how I feel about the movie as a whole.
One word: Aquaman. Or is that two words? Aqua Man? Aqua-Man? Nope definitely one word.

They purposely didn't mention Atlantis or that he was from Atlantis or anything about Atlantis because Aquaman already did that and not that long ago. Yes I know Namor technically predates Aquaman but for right here and now Aquaman already has Atlantis tied up. So they wanted to differentiate from that underwater world. And you know what? IMHO they did a great job with Namor's origin. I think it was a great spin on the character and grounded him a lot more (considering he has freaking wings on his feet). I general I think Disney does an excellent job representing culture. Even all the way back to their original animated films and especially their recent animated films; Coco, Moana, Brave etc. I think Namor and his people were a highlight of this movie.
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Old 11-14-22, 11:17 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

I thought overall it was a great movie. I'm really pleasantly surprised at how heavy the movie was. The grief was palpable in the movie. Of course it was because of real life tragic events but I think they did an incredible job of translating those real events to the big screen. I was very impressed with the performances of the cast. Letitia Wright really stepped it up from her previous "goofy techy side kick" role in the previous movies. I like how Coogler and company used that key character trait and turned it on it's head as a character flaw and in that showed her evolving her relationship with technology and religion. I was at first worried how Namor would fit in the story but I feel like the Namor plot and the Wakanda plot really fit together well and overall enhanced the story of grief and loss. And holy cow, there's a lot of talk about Angela Bassett being nominated for best supporting actress. Can we go ahead and make that happen. Again, I'm sure it was enhanced by the pathos from the real life loss of Boseman but her performance in this movie was palpable. Danai did an excellent job as well. That scene between Okoye and Ramonda had me at the edge of my seat. Just a really powerful scene. (Marvel movies aren't art....what???) Also really liked M'Baku's continued character growth and development. Lupita Nyong'o looked incredible in this movie. Loved the scene's she was in but wish she had a bit of a bigger role.

But there were definitely some issues. Although I felt like Namor added to the main story there were still a lot of check marks they had to deal with to set up future MCU projects. Way more then the previous movie and they really distract from the primary story. I like Freeman as Ross but he's really shoehorned in here although his loyalty to T'challa and Wakanda was a nice foil for the general plot of US government = bad.

I absolutely hate JLD as Valentina. I like her alright, love her as Elaine. I really hate Valentina. She's trying to play her up like this all seeing and knowing and plotting goofball of a villain but it just misses every single time. It also doesn't help that every time she shows up it's an obvious and jarring "hey look guys we're setting up the next MCU thing" moment that takes you out of whatever movie/show she's in.

I did like Letitia Wright's performance in this movie as Shuri. This movie was primarily about her journey through grief and in that aspect I think it was well done. But she doesn't really make a convincing Black Panther. And I think that Disney kind of knew that and I think it was a wise decision to limit her as Black Panther in this movie and focus more on the other plot. I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed in how little Black Panther there is in this movie but I think, at least for the story this movie is trying to tell, it was for the best.

That ending though. I liked it as an emotional plot point to this movie. It really gives hope to a movie that has so much grief. However, that was undermined by the feeling like it was just thrown in so they can have a successor to Black Panther in the future. It was and I believe it was supposed to be a part of Shuri's emotional journey and in that way it succeeds. But Marvel always going to Marvel. Well at least it was better then the Hulk's son's introduction.
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Old 11-14-22, 11:38 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

That painting Namor was working on during his final scene, was that a depiction of Kang towards the right?
Old 11-14-22, 11:50 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by IBJoel View Post
2. Speaking of Iron Man, is it really any less realistic that a child prodigy could build an Iron Man suit with the resources of Wakanda (or a prototype with her MIT connections) than a businessman (who at that point in the film actually hadn't been shown to have an engineering background) building one in a cave? Or that that same businessman is not only capable of making a robotic suit, but ALSO inventing true AI, nano technology, and became an astrophysicist literally overnight? Or that a high schooler solved an AI issue from another universe in his apartment in a couple hours?
The main reason I was slightly put off by it is that we really know nothing about this character. Sheís introduced as super intelligent. Thatís fine, but that means she has the knowledge and the skills plus resources to just build a prototype suit, and thereís no explanation? Hopefully she gets some more backstory but itís just a lot to throw in and not really give any answers as to how.

Tony Stark we at least know is smart but is the brains behind Stark Industries plus has resources. Of course the Mark I suit is far fetched but even there you can still stretch your imagination in that he has some tools to work with to show how he does it.
Old 11-15-22, 12:07 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
Tony Stark we at least know is smart but is the brains behind Stark Industries plus has resources. Of course the Mark I suit is far fetched but even there you can still stretch your imagination in that he has some tools to work with to show how he does it.
And for me, Iron Man already showed me how a smart person can build a suit out of limited resources. So I didn't need that montage here, and I assume at least some of her backstory will come out in Ironheart as well.
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Old 11-15-22, 12:50 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
And for me, Iron Man already showed me how a smart person can build a suit out of limited resources. So I didn't need that montage here, and I assume at least some of her backstory will come out in Ironheart as well.
I didnít dislike the character but Iím just saying. Some more background on her wouldnít have hurt.

Truthfully it didnít even feel like she was that vital to the film and could have pretty easily been cut. I think thatís part of the problem I have too. She feels like a Marvel Studios mandated character to be introduced to promote the Ironheart Disney+ series.

Hopefully eventually her series gives us a bit more so we know how sheís able to do all the things she could. Being smart is one thing but still not sure how she would have the resources to put together her tech.
Old 11-15-22, 12:53 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

That's how I felt too. And how did Naymor know that all the technology was the product of a single scientist and not a whole team? If his spies are that good from the bottom of the ocean, why not just get her yourself, fish-guy?
Old 11-15-22, 08:04 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
If his spies are that good from the bottom of the ocean, why not just get her yourself, fish-guy?
That was my issue when Namor gave Ramonda the shell and presented his ultimatum. Heck, the second he said "I have as many warriors as your land has blades of grass", I thought " then do it yourself, asshole". And then that's exactly what he technically did when had Attuma and his goons attack Suri and Okoye to retrieve Riri. Why not track and retrieve Riri themselves instead of outting their existence to the Wakandans?

Speaking of that scene, did they ever explain how the Talokans can survive fatal impalements but wounds from sonic rounds can kill them? Their respective power levels were never properly established.

Also, I get that Namor's final scene implies this was all a ploy to gain Wakanda as an Operation: Human Shield, but the events that transpire make it extremely contrived at best and would still be a huge gamble without some level of precognition.
​​
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Old 11-15-22, 10:36 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by tanman View Post
One word: Aquaman. Or is that two words? Aqua Man? Aqua-Man? Nope definitely one word.

They purposely didn't mention Atlantis or that he was from Atlantis or anything about Atlantis because Aquaman already did that and not that long ago. Yes I know Namor technically predates Aquaman but for right here and now Aquaman already has Atlantis tied up. So they wanted to differentiate from that underwater world. And you know what? IMHO they did a great job with Namor's origin. I think it was a great spin on the character and grounded him a lot more (considering he has freaking wings on his feet). I general I think Disney does an excellent job representing culture. Even all the way back to their original animated films and especially their recent animated films; Coco, Moana, Brave etc. I think Namor and his people were a highlight of this movie.
I hadn't even thought about Aquaman. I just figured the idea of Atlantis was broad enough.

And where you and I differ is in the origin making it feel more grounded. I think it's more grounded that there has been a civilization of people living in the water, like an alternate path in man's evolution, rather than they were once regular people and took potions to breathe underwater. Likewise, the Namor name thing felt really shoehorned in. No amor? Really?

But I agree that I liked the representation of the culture, but I think much of it was able to stand on its own. It didn't need as much explanation and didn't need magic potions.
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Old 11-15-22, 03:11 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

It is my understanding that though Namor predates Aquaman...Namor being from Atlantis came AFTER Aquaman and many years after Namor's debut. Can anyone confirm?
Old 11-15-22, 03:52 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Namor predates Aquaman by about two years.

Namor was created early in 1939 for a promotional giveaway comic called Motion Picture Funnies #1, which was, to my knowledge never published. Namor's official first appearance was in Marvel Comics #1 in October 1939, which printed an expanded version of the story from Motion Picture Funnies. This comic also featured the debut of The Human Torch (the Golden Age android version, not the Johnny Storm Human Torch from The Fantastic Four). This comic came out about a year and a half before Captain America's first appearance, making Namor and the Human Torch Marvel's first superhero characters.

Aquaman debuted in More Fun Comics #73 in November 1941.

I think that, in the Marvel continuity, Namor's kingdom wasn't identified as Atlantis until his Silver Age appearances in the early 1960s, when he re-introduced in The Fantastic Four and was trying to get in the Invisible Girl's pants.

Later, they also did a sort of retcon where Namor, Captain America, and The Human Torch were part of a team for the Axis during World War II called The Invaders.

Last edited by Josh-da-man; 11-15-22 at 04:02 PM.
Old 11-15-22, 04:21 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by clckworang View Post
I hadn't even thought about Aquaman. I just figured the idea of Atlantis was broad enough.

And where you and I differ is in the origin making it feel more grounded. I think it's more grounded that there has been a civilization of people living in the water, like an alternate path in man's evolution, rather than they were once regular people and took potions to breathe underwater. Likewise, the Namor name thing felt really shoehorned in. No amor? Really?

But I agree that I liked the representation of the culture, but I think much of it was able to stand on its own. It didn't need as much explanation and didn't need magic potions.
I may be misremembering. I believe Namor's Atlantis was originally on the surface and they were normal humans. They knew disaster was coming. An Atlantean scientist came up with a gas they could inhale that would make them breathe underwater. The catch was that it was irreversible. Once you breathe the gas, your skin turns blue and you can breathe underwater, but no longer breathe air.
I seem to remember incidents of a reverse gas being used that was temporary. Your skin turned normal, you could breathe air, and you could mix in with the surface world for a limited period until it wore off.
In the seventies Namor got exposed to some kind of gas or chemical that altered him. He lost the ability to breathe air, or water, don't know which. He had to wear this vest to go back and forth. I think Reed Richards created the vest for him.
Old 11-15-22, 07:22 PM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
I may be misremembering. I believe Namor's Atlantis was originally on the surface and they were normal humans. They knew disaster was coming. An Atlantean scientist came up with a gas they could inhale that would make them breathe underwater. The catch was that it was irreversible. Once you breathe the gas, your skin turns blue and you can breathe underwater, but no longer breathe air.
I seem to remember incidents of a reverse gas being used that was temporary. Your skin turned normal, you could breathe air, and you could mix in with the surface world for a limited period until it wore off.
In the seventies Namor got exposed to some kind of gas or chemical that altered him. He lost the ability to breathe air, or water, don't know which. He had to wear this vest to go back and forth. I think Reed Richards created the vest for him.
I honestly don't know the comics origin. My main thing was keep it simple, especially if you're already making changes, or save the explanation for another film.
Old 11-16-22, 06:52 AM
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Also since when was getting run through the midriff with a spear and impaled a survivable injury, let alone something you can just walk away from without even a bandage? It was certainly a more significant stab wound than the one that killed Killmonger.

Also Naymor had a pretty huge standing army for a country that has never seen a foreigner, let alone an invader. Were they always at the ready in case a human showed up at the bottom of the ocean with a Vibranium detector machine?
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
That was my issue when Namor gave Ramonda the shell and presented his ultimatum. Heck, the second he said "I have as many warriors as your land has blades of grass", I thought " then do it yourself, asshole". And then that's exactly what he technically did when had Attuma and his goons attack Suri and Okoye to retrieve Riri. Why not track and retrieve Riri themselves instead of outting their existence to the Wakandans?

Speaking of that scene, did they ever explain how the Talokans can survive fatal impalements but wounds from sonic rounds can kill them? Their respective power levels were never properly established.

Also, I get that Namor's final scene implies this was all a ploy to gain Wakanda as an Operation: Human Shield, but the events that transpire make it extremely contrived at best and would still be a huge gamble without some level of precognition.
​​
That's two huge pet peeves of mine that I've seen increasingly in movies. Obviously nonsurvivable wounds and poorly defined powers. Both stem from incredibly lazy writing. It seem like for a time these big action blockbusters were moving towards a more realistic portrayal of fantastic events. Think the Dark Knight, Spider-Man, X-Men. At least when they first started they were pretty decently grounded. Of course they still had their powers and could do things that people couldn't but it was still something that was believable. Now it seems like they keep trying to one up the fantastical to the point of ridiculousness.
Old 11-16-22, 11:46 AM
  #50  
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Re: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022, D: Coogler) -- The Spoiler Reviews Thread

The problems I had with it.. I had already seen this motivation from Ocean Master to war with the surface world. Riri just used as a thin plot device without giving her much of anything to actually do. No consistency in the Talokan's powers...

... and then this.



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