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Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

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Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Old 01-04-22, 02:22 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Spoilers is a big one. I HATE spoilers. We were supposed to see No Way Home opening weekend but had to reschedule when my daughter got COVID so it wasn't until the following Friday when we could go. It was brutal dodging those all week. And I consistently love Marvel movies post Dark World so if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a night at the theater, I'm going to do it for those movies. I'm not taking risks anymore - I can (and often do) blind-buy something digitally for $19.99, which is cheaper than two tickets to see it in the theater AND I own it. I just can't justify spending more than $30 to see some random movie in the theater I may or may not like.

And I love the spectacle - I was a huge Marvel comics fan back in the 80s and 90s but the movies were sorely lacking. Seeing what used to be impossible brought to life is the best kind of nostalgia for me.
Aren't you a big musicals person? So you don't believe in supporting something like West Side Story because it's not Marvel or DC? That movie unfortunately didn't get much support. Not that many here watched it, but I thought it was one of the best movies of 2021. It's not some big spectacle IP movie, but I'm sure it's something you would have enjoyed on the big screen. I mean it's Spielberg.
Old 01-04-22, 02:24 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Regardless of whether one believes in wokeness or not, the movie company executives know that what older people think is irrevelant.

The day wokeness and/or any other "trend/meme" turns away a large enough number of younger people, is the day it will start fading away. Then it will be onto the next trend/meme which young people are paying attention to.
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Old 01-04-22, 02:53 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by morriscroy View Post
Regardless of whether one believes in wokeness or not, the movie company executives know that what older people think is irrevelant.

The day wokeness and/or any other "trend/meme" turns away a large enough number of younger people, is the day it will start fading away. Then it will be onto the next trend/meme which young people are paying attention to.

Truth. When they start really losing money from the younger folks they'll go another direction. We are reminded that Hollywood cares a lot about the Younger crowd. They don't give a shit if men over 50 are scared off by wokeness. So it may be a while before that happens....
Old 01-04-22, 03:25 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by DJariya View Post
Aren't you a big musicals person? So you don't believe in supporting something like West Side Story because it's not Marvel or DC? That movie unfortunately didn't get much support. Not that many here watched it, but I thought it was one of the best movies of 2021. It's not some big spectacle IP movie, but I'm sure it's something you would have enjoyed on the big screen. I mean it's Spielberg.
That's just it though, West Side Story IS a spectacle. And I can name any number of other non-cgi, non-franchise movies that are also visual spectacles and didn't make 10% of what Spider-Man made. That's why I tend to downplay that as a reason people see certain movies in the theater and avoid others.

Even fear of spoilers I find to be somewhat dubious. I get it, but spoilers are not exclusive to franchise films. Any movie can be spoiled. Franchise movies might be the only movies people talk about online and thus more likely to be spoiled, but even if everyone and their brother were talking about Licorice Pizza last week, I don't think everyone would suddenly be rushing to the theaters to avoid being spoiled.

I think it ultimately comes down to something being a known quantity vs being an unknown quantity. People are pre-sold a product. Hollywood has been doing it for its entire existence, but this idea of "cinematic universes" where each movie exists in order to set up the next and the next and the next is some new kind of sorcery. Not only are we being pre-sold a movie, we're being pre-sold 5 or 10 or however many. Even if the studios could guarantee an audience for some random drama/comedy/musical/whatever, it doesn't make sense to waste resources on that if it's one and done. Better to put money into the thing that will keep paying off a decade down the road.
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Old 01-04-22, 03:37 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Let's leave the second part of that out of the conversation because it's a different issue. I want to talk about the "wokeness" of projects. Because I hear that complaint a lot and I don't really get it. Times change, opinions and views change, shouldn't movies change with them? I agree that maybe I don't want to be lectured to when going to a movie, but a certain amount of cultural sensitivity and greater representation in films? I'm fine with that. When you don't get some degree of it you can end up with something like Licorice Pizza, a movie that I otherwise loved, but had a really cringe-worthy Asian joke that might have been appropriate for the time the film is set but just sticks out like an uncomfortable sore thumb now. If that sort of thing is the opposite of "woke", I don't want it. Plenty of older films just seem dated because we view issues of race, gender and sexuality differently (or at least we should). That's just evolving.
When I hear a complaint that Spielberg's West Side Story is too "woke", I don't really know how to respond to that. The Puerto Ricans now have jobs and family lives and sometimes speak to each other in their native tongues, nobody is acting in brownface, a few changes were made after speaking with people in the Puerto Rican community (like discovering that even Puerto Ricans who love America don't want their native island to sink into the sea). Those sort of changes just seem appropriate if you are going to remake a film like that. I don't know how or why people find those sort of changes some sort of an affront to their sensibilities.
It is impossible to agree with this post more than I do.

Though, I'll say that I know people who would 100% make a similar Asian joke in LP today. Not defending it by any means, just saying that that shit still goes on in part because those people that found it acceptable (in their own social circles) in that time period haven't quite realized that, no, it's not actually funny.
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Old 01-04-22, 03:45 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Kurt D View Post
Not to derail, but it's too bad we can't go back to the maverick cinema of the 70s and all those truly great, revolutionary movies that were anti-war, pro-free-love, anti-racist, and stuff like that.
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Old 01-04-22, 03:47 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Kurt D View Post
Not to derail, but it's too bad we can't go back to the maverick cinema of the 70s and all those truly great, revolutionary movies that were anti-war, pro-free-love, anti-racist, and stuff like that.
There just aren't many auteurs these days. A few, but the 70s had like 20 times more of them if you stop and count.
Old 01-04-22, 03:50 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

I also believe as Ticket prices have risen, lotsa folks are pretty sensitive to what they believe are shitty films. A shitty film at the 1 dollar theater is a one thing, but a shitty film in a theater where you just spent $20 per person...well, it just hits different. I'd have a hard time going in blind when I'm spending that much on a theater ticket. So yeah, some Jading is gonna happen.
Old 01-04-22, 04:32 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Finisher View Post
There just aren't many auteurs these days. A few, but the 70s had like 20 times more of them if you stop and count.
There are plenty of auteurs. The difference is that once someone has success making a smaller film, they tend to get sucked up into the franchise machine. If they ever want to make something with a larger budget, it's often the only avenue they have.
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Old 01-04-22, 05:26 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
There are plenty of auteurs. The difference is that once someone has success making a smaller film, they tend to get sucked up into the franchise machine. If they ever want to make something with a larger budget, it's often the only avenue they have.
Yup. There are plenty. But people need to seek out their work. There are a lot of options and avenues for content now.
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Old 01-04-22, 05:41 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by MLBFan24 View Post
In response to this one, I will say "Avengers - Infinity War" was definitely not superhero formulaic (the ending). But of course, that's just one MCU movie, but I'm still amazed at how that movie ended. It broke the superhero movie formula.
The Winter Soldier is the Best MCU film.
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Old 01-04-22, 06:41 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

I donít know that the original question is even answerable. Itís not like movie audiences are monolithic things. Iíd also say that while they probably make up a majority in our community here, Ďfilm loversí are a relatively small subset of those who go to theaters.

The enormous amount of movies and tv shows being produced has probably disillusioned some and has certainly given the mediums the feel of being more of a commodity. That said, itís hard for me to understand people griping about blockbusters. There are sooooo many stories put to film each year and if someoneís unable to find a good number that they really truly enjoy, I feel like theyíre either not looking very hard or maybe just arenít all that into the art form. Although the huge increase in output also means that those who want to criticize and complain have way more fodder as well, and some people definitely seem to prefer focusing on things to shit on instead of things to enjoy.
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Old 01-04-22, 06:44 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
There are plenty of auteurs. The difference is that once someone has success making a smaller film, they tend to get sucked up into the franchise machine. If they ever want to make something with a larger budget, it's often the only avenue they have.

Correct. Shit, Michael Bay is technically an auteur. A mediocre one at that.
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Old 01-04-22, 06:44 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by candyrocket786 View Post
The Winter Soldier is the Best MCU film.

I concur.
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Old 01-04-22, 07:45 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Take something like Mare of Easttown on HBO Max. Amazing miniseries. Kate Winslet was perfection. The acting, filmmaking, storytelling, nearly everything was pitch perfect. (Flaws, but they're mostly nitpicks).

They could have told that story 20 years ago with Julia Roberts or Sandra Bullock in the leading role in a 2 hour movie around awards season and it would have been a blockbuster. These days, in cinemas, it would be a blip a best, even pre-pandemic.

Audiences don't want that anymore. They want more Marvel superheroes and big loud franchises and the like. A West Side Story doesn't have a chance anymore. A slow-burn drama? Good luck. What's the last good comedy that captured audiences in cinemas? I can't even remember.

Streaming is the future. Maybe not ideal, but at least there is a future for unconventional, non-franchise, non-"turn your brain off and enjoy" filmmaking.
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Old 01-04-22, 07:49 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

The only movies people see in the theater are comic book or comic based movies so yeah I am not happy with the current model.
Old 01-04-22, 09:10 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

The real answer is Hollywood's changing business model. The studios used to produce dozens of mid-level projects each year, which mostly made minor profits and occasionally produced real gems in different genres. It was a sweet spot that met both commercial and artistic demands, simultaneously allowing talented filmmakers and creatives the chance at making an unforgettable film. The example I'd list is Chinatown, if I am allowed to go that far back. $6 million budget. Hollywood makes far fewer mid-budget films like this today. Everything now is either programmed genre schlock made on the cheap or $200 million superhero movies.

What happened is that the MBAs running most studios noticed their actual profit margins are entirely driven by their biggest and most expensive films. I'm pretty sure Titanic's massive success was the final nail for smaller projects with small returns. It made no sense anymore to keep investing in mid-level projects when the ROI for the studio's cash was higher on blockbusters.

Once a film's budget gets over $100 million, good luck getting anything which hasn't been sliced and diced by large committees. There are just too many people giving input, making it nigh impossible to make a truly compelling blockbuster. I'll give Nolan credit, he's been given more latitude than just about any modern director in Hollywood and made some interesting blockbuster films despite these issues. I'm not sure how he does it, because almost no one else is today on a consistent basis.

The best scripted content coming out of Hollywood today are long--form shows running on premium channels and top streaming outlets. It's much harder for a studio to meddle on 12 hours of television than a two-hour movie.
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Old 01-04-22, 09:29 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by candyrocket786 View Post
The Winter Soldier is the Best MCU film.
Rewatching now, and; yes. It's got it all: espionage, super heroics, great action, tons of guns, humor, buddy-cop stuff. Perfect!
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Old 01-04-22, 10:18 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by maxfisher View Post
I donít know that the original question is even answerable. Itís not like movie audiences are monolithic things. Iíd also say that while they probably make up a majority in our community here, Ďfilm loversí are a relatively small subset of those who go to theaters.

The enormous amount of movies and tv shows being produced has probably disillusioned some and has certainly given the mediums the feel of being more of a commodity. That said, itís hard for me to understand people griping about blockbusters. There are sooooo many stories put to film each year and if someoneís unable to find a good number that they really truly enjoy, I feel like theyíre either not looking very hard or maybe just arenít all that into the art form. Although the huge increase in output also means that those who want to criticize and complain have way more fodder as well, and some people definitely seem to prefer focusing on things to shit on instead of things to enjoy.
I take exception to the idea of griping about blockbusters. Those in particular have narrowed considerably. Nancy Meyers films would no longer be released as blockbusters, for instance, and there are fewer Oscar-contenders that make the top grosses of the year (if any in the past 10 years). Hell even Roland Emmerich's latest is relegated to a February release.
Old 01-05-22, 12:30 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

It's all about the $$$. That's why they call it show BUSINESS and not show ART. It' s all about the bottom line. If you can get in there with a good script that's just icing on the cake.
Old 01-05-22, 02:35 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

I'm pretty sure if the original Star Wars had been a one off with the same impact, but without any sequels and now the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi would be released, those movies would get a lot of hate. There a tons of things peole complain about in episodes VII-IX which they don't mind in the original trilogy.
Also people tend to hate sequels which aren't as good as the original, but that's not a new phenomenon. The Godfather: Part III is a very good movie, it's just not a masterpiece so many people regard it as a bad movie.

What I regard as ironic is the critizism about the DCEU and the MCU. The MCU has a plan, but should be more innovative, instead of making one movie after the other, based on the same formular with the same story beats. The DCEU should have a plan and follow Marvel's example.
I do get why people dislike the Snyderverse but it was pretty consistant, it just wasn't in the same mood as the MCU or as as good as Nolan's Batman movies. While I do think it was a giant fuck up to change Justice League into a Marvel movie and a three-hour-version of the Snyder Cut would have been the best choice, in the end it was a business decision. Neither BvS nor Justice League made the money the studio was expecting and the behind the scenes stuff with Snyder, Affleck or Whedon didn't help either.
Old 01-05-22, 05:02 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

1. The franchise has replaced the movie star. Used to be the star was the primary selling point so you could release any kind of movie and people would go see it.
2. Movies and tv have always been in competition and the movies always have to have a leg up over tv. First it was widescreen, then color, then unedited R movies, then stereo, then surround, the big stars, the only thing movies have left is the big budget thrill ride you can't get at home.
3. These big thrill ride movies are expensive to make. Studios are hesitant to gamble with an unproven entity. No different than when a movie couldn't made until a big star signed on to get a studio to back it.
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Old 01-05-22, 06:02 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Finisher View Post
There just aren't many auteurs these days. A few, but the 70s had like 20 times more of them if you stop and count.
Oh there are plenty these days. As stated in my previous post about film financing, and the crash of 2008. Well that resulted in many smaller production companies forging closer working relationships with each other.

The result of which was the 2010s saw an explosion in indie filmmaking.
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Old 01-05-22, 07:53 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by DJariya View Post
Aren't you a big musicals person? So you don't believe in supporting something like West Side Story because it's not Marvel or DC? That movie unfortunately didn't get much support. Not that many here watched it, but I thought it was one of the best movies of 2021. It's not some big spectacle IP movie, but I'm sure it's something you would have enjoyed on the big screen. I mean it's Spielberg.
That one is interesting - I love that show (I was in it twice in high school) and have a soft spot for the original movie, as problematic as it is today. And I just had zero interest in seeing a new version. Absolutely none. No problems waiting for it to be on HBO. I know that’s not supporting it in the best way but I honestly don’t really understand why Spielberg wanted to remake it anyway.

Same with something like Dear Evan Hansen - I wasn’t going to see that in the theater. In The Heights was great but also perfect for watching at home (which I did opening weekend on HBO Max). And my favorite movie of the year was tick…tick…BOOM!, which was another perfect home release.

As for the lack of mid-level movies - they are still out there. They are just on streaming services now. And if that works for them, I don’t understand why it’s bad they aren’t in theaters anymore. They have more creative freedom and can get weirder without being noted to death by studio execs. That seems worth celebrating.

Last edited by Draven; 01-05-22 at 09:19 AM.
Old 01-05-22, 08:14 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
As for the lack of mid-level movies - they are still out there. They are just on streaming services now. And Iíd that works for them, I donít understand why itís bad they arenít in theaters anymore. They have more creative freedom and can get weirder without being noted to death by studio execs. That seems worth celebrating.
The issue is finding them. I read this board religiously for finding upcoming films I'd like to watch and I know there's tons out there I would love but I have no clue they exist. I've got a pretty sweet home theater setup and would generally much rather watch something at home rather than go out to the cinema, but there's just so many channels to navigate and filter out the good from the shit. Used to, I could review the movies that came out in the theater each month and make a list of what I want to watch once it hit home video. Now with Hulu, Amazon, Netflix, Disney, Apple, Paramount +, HBO, Showtime, and whoever else all making movies, I really have no clue what's new and what's good.

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